I was in Rostock last week and, simply by seeing the amount of support in the form of posters and graffiti there it was clear they were going to make hay. No surprise, either, that they did better in the poorer and less squeamish former GDR than in the wealthier, more liberal west.
It's almost as if unilaterally inviting a few million young, unemployed immigrant men into your country is going to produce a backlash, isn't it? Who'd have thought, eh? :rubchin:
To be fair, they are not invited in as unemployed people ;) At least let them arrive and try to find a jobQuote:
Originally Posted by Burney
Well as of November last year, only 13% of them had found work. This is pretty ironic, given that one of the excuses for letting them in was to bolster Germany's dwindling industrial workforce. :shrug:Quote:
Originally Posted by Peter
Racist employers? They do have a bit of form in this area, the Krauts :)Quote:
Originally Posted by Burney
Its not really ironic though, is it?
when I think AFD I thinkQuote:
Originally Posted by Burney
https://encrypted-tbn0.gstatic.com/i...PPyEKBXlxx8DTa
The average middle-class German these days is pathetically desperate NOT to be be racist. They fall over themselves to be nice about migrants, even when they clearly know damn well that the whole thing was an unmitigated fùck up.Quote:
Originally Posted by Peter
I was talking to one the other day and I said that, from the outside looking in, Merkel's decision looked crazy. He agreed that it was crazy, but that at the time he'd supported it because he'd liked the idea of Germany being seen as the good guy. They're all blackmailed by their history, basically.
Similar to us. Post imperial guilt and all that.Quote:
Originally Posted by Burney
Why are you spending so much time hanging out with the Hun?
I have to go there on business more than I'd like. It's alright, but I do find it hard to warm to them.Quote:
Originally Posted by Peter
13%?! I think only 500 of the 160,000 we got in 2015 had found work a year after.Quote:
Originally Posted by Burney
The beer is good. I had to go to a lunch with 12 of them once in Berlin. They are not funny. I find this very difficult to deal with.Quote:
Originally Posted by Burney
I hate eating with people at the best of times but this was torture. One of them told a racist joke that I still don't understand.
Yes, well Sweden has the dubious honour of being the only country in Europe even more insane about migrants than Germany. You got in the absolute dregs as well. Somalians and Afghans - not nationalities noted for their love of the rule of law or commitment to non-violence. :hehe:Quote:
Originally Posted by Billy Goat Sverige
The beer is good, but all the pilsener basically tastes the same due to having identical ingredients. And I can't stand Weissbier or dunkelbier. For that reason, I tend to get bored of German beer fairly quickly.Quote:
Originally Posted by Peter
The Germans do have a sense of humour, but it's not exactly subtle.
Weissbier is pretty much the only type of beer that I genuinely like the taste of :-(Quote:
Originally Posted by Burney
anecdotal evidence beneath you b. Anyone who didn't know you might think you were dabbling in dubious reportage.Quote:
Originally Posted by Burney
Eh? So I oughtn't to report a conversation I had with a German in Germany about Germany because it may not be representative of every single German?Quote:
Originally Posted by Herbert Augustus Chapman
Bòllocks.
wrong place :-)
And people who are characterised by indolence and avarice must invariably resort to crime; the only pursuit that can simultaneously satisfy both traits.Quote:
Originally Posted by Billy Goat Sverige
I've become a racist haven't I :-(
This news item was tailor-made for you, wasn't it? Thank you, German elections.Quote:
Originally Posted by Burney
And yet, when you look at Germany, this whole immigrant crisis has been a net gain for them. *They are no longer the international pariah; they've behaved well, with humanitarian concern. It means that they have moral superiority again, which is something they've lacked for seventy years. Unfortunately, my good old US of A has sacrificed hers. We're the would-be Nazis, unfort. We lose, the Germans gain. You British also lose with your Brexit, I expect. :-/
:hehe: You have literally no idea of what's going on in Germany as a result of Merkel's decision, do you? A nation that had no terrorism problem has now imported one; it has lost roughly half a million of these migrants and has literally no idea where they now are;most of them are unemployed and a massive burden on the resources and infrastructure of the country; the country is suffering a spike in violent crime - particularly sex crime - that is unprecedented in its history and every town centre is full of hordes of middle Eastern/North African men in large, intimidating groups; and, of course, having taking this monumentally stupid step unilaterally, Germany has tried to force other EU states to take some of these people. Understandably, many have told them to fùck off and sort out their own mess.Quote:
Originally Posted by eastgermanautos
That's why millions of people are suddenly voting for the only party on the ticket that actually acknowledges that there's a problem - let alone plans to do do anything about it. Merkel's idiocy made this election result happen. If you think that gives her or Germany any moral superiority, you're deluded. As for the whole thing being a 'net gain', the idea is laughable. Even Merkel has admitted she regrets it, ffs!
And we've established already that you have barely even the most rudimentary idea of what Brexit is, what it actually means or the reasons behind it, so kindly forbear from pontificating on the subject.
I do know that the Germans took a hit as far as the world's perception of them when they decided to kill 6 million Jews, et al. After that, they were concerned to repair their reputation but found it rather difficult for a solid 70 years. It's easier to be xenophobic than it is to be tolerant, which is why nations get credit for being tolerant. Germany took a hit, sure, but it's still extremely well off. It also can be proud of itself for doing something magnanimous.Quote:
Originally Posted by Burney
And here's the thing: where does xenophobia end? It just continues to spiral. Here we have this maniac of a president who tears into everything. But I think he's going down by taking on NFL football. Because that there's our national entertainment, and you don't fvck with that.
You've literally just ignored everything Burney's written about the horrors taking place in Germany right now and the cause of it.Quote:
Originally Posted by eastgermanautos
And while you're praising Germany for restoring their reputation after killing 6 million Jews, then imagine how German Jews feel about another far right party rising to (albeit modest) power.
I think "albeit modest" is the key. People want to make money, and parliamentary centrism is the governmental form most conducive to that.Quote:
Originally Posted by Monty92
As for Germany, I was there -- recently. Berlin, Wolfsburg, Munich, Vienna, Sazburg, towns in and around. And I'm going back next week. There may be concentrations of immigrants, but I found that most places were not "overrun." This is just color reporting, whipping up hysteria. You can always point to some slimy, unkempt degenerate and generalize that into the rule. I have no doubt that some fvcked up **** happens, such as the Cologne sexual assaults of a few months ago. This is what police and security forces are for.
Crudely put: seventy years ago Germans killed off anybody who wasn't of their narrowly-defined ethnic background. Now we want to cry bloody murder when a few more darkies get in there? Uncool! If white Germans want to have more people they should have more white, nordic kids. Simple.
OK, first of all, Vienna and Salzburg are in Austria. It's a completely different country.Quote:
Originally Posted by eastgermanautos
Second, you seem to be arguing that this generation of Germans effectively deserve what they're getting because of what happened 70 years ago. That's an utterly fùcked up way of looking at things and actually pretty fûcking sick.
Merkel opened the doors to a crimewave, terrorism and all the other delights of Muslim immigration without consulting the German people. Now they are expressing their dissatisfaction with that decision. It's called democracy.
When a group of British rabbis visited Greek refugee camps, they were told to wear baseball caps over their kippahs. Otherwise they'd be attacked by the lovely refugees.Quote:
Originally Posted by Monty92
If I were a German Jew, I'd be far more scared of the refugees than AfD.
You have a street fighter's instinct for exaggerating some small point at the expense of the large. I know Vienna and Salzburg are in Austria. I'm shooting a movie in Austria, have met with basically every major Austrian film production house and producer. The movie itself is set in Austria in 1911, so yes, I do know. German-speaking world. I visited not too long ago the Synchron Stage, outside Vienna, built by Goebbels to put on propaganda performances of Wagner and other favored Nazi composers.Quote:
Originally Posted by Burney
In terms of the larger point, of course the present-day residents of a country are building their efforts on the historical efforts of their countrymen. We react to an environment. Germans in the 1950s found it difficult to pretend as if nothing had happened. Now, they have the opportunity to behave well; and they do it, I think, with a view to what happened before. These Muslims are an issue, not gonna lie. I found it a bit chippy in London actually. So I get it. But one has an obligation not to freak the fvck out every ten minutes. You want to do well with your own life, and if you get a swastika tattooed on your face, that works against said goal.
You accept that 'these muslims are an issue', but at the same time condemn anyone who is concerned about the issue and seeks to do something about it democratically as a Nazi? The political mainstream in Germany has colluded in refusing to address the issue - or even acknowledge that an issue exists. Given which, it's hardly surprising that Germans are turning to a party that does. These are not people with swastikas tattooed on their faces. They're ordinary decent people - many of them former CDU voters - who have turned to AfD.Quote:
Originally Posted by eastgermanautos
The problem is that the German desire to 'behave well' in the light of their historical wrongs has led them to behave in a way that - while it may give them a happy glow in the short-term - has massive and damaging implications in the long term not just for them, but for the whole of mainland Europe. Why should the rest of Europe suffer for the Germans' guilty conscience? Germany's actions were irresponsible and reckless and it's fair to point that out without being called a fascist or told you're 'freaking out'.
The mass, uncontrolled immigration of millions of young men from completely alien cultures with very different values and beliefs has profound long-term consequences for the society that imports them. History has shown that muslims do not assimilate in western cultures, so any idea that everyone will rub along and it'll all turn out OK is simply fantasy. It is not 'freaking out' to recognise and address these facts. Neither is it freaking out to acknowledge the demonstrable fact that these mass importations have led to serious social problems (to put it mildly).
Of course, the problem with debates about immigration is that they always descend into an antagonistic binary. One side calls the other gullible fools and terrorist sympathisers, while the other calls its opponents bigots, racists, Nazis, etc. It is much more helpful to see it in terms of competing virtues. One side believes there is a moral duty to accept immigrants, while the other recognises that there are negative effects to immigration and asks whether any moral case for immigration justifies these negatives for the existing population. There is no need to impute bad motives to either side, since both are simply expressing legitimate concerns and neither is bad or mean by virtue of their stance. Unfortunately, nobody ever wants to argue along these lines, so instead we get stuck with the usual mudslinging and no sensible debate is ever achieved.
I would have thought the irony was that Germany's attempt to behave well and move on from their past has led directly to the rise of an extreme far right party.Quote:
Originally Posted by Burney
Quite funny seeing you both accept that Austria and Germany are different countries. I mean, they are for now, but.....:)
I wont pick up on several of the points you make there regarding immigration and muslims because we have done this to death.
Not really an irony so much as an entirely predictable case of cause and effect. Newton's Third Law and all that. :shrug:Quote:
Originally Posted by Peter
Irony in that their attempt to escape from their past has actually recreated it. The problem with wanting to appear to be an open and tolerant country is that most people are not tolerant and dont want their country to be open.Quote:
Originally Posted by Burney
This is a strange thing to say. The people of Europe have been - and remain in large part - incredibly tolerant of the mass migration that has been imposed on them against their wishes. They may have objected to it, but they have accepted it with incredibly good grace, which stems from an acknowledgement that the overwhelming people who come here were dealt a shít hand in life and are simply seeking a better one.Quote:
Originally Posted by Peter
Hardly surprising. Most people operate on the principle 'what's in it for me?' and if they see no benefit to them from immigration, why would anyone expect them to support it?Quote:
Originally Posted by Peter
True, actually. The European people certainly can't be faulted on their toleration of mass migration. But there's a big difference between toleration of something and support for it.Quote:
Originally Posted by Monty92
If only they were less tolerant, things might meaningfully change...Quote:
Originally Posted by Burney
Actually, what I'm waiting for is for a family affected by a European terrorist attack to contain someone who is engaged with this issue and uses it as a platform to speak out. This could be a game-changer as no-one would accuse someone who has lost a loved one at the hands of an Allan of being a racist bigot.
It could be like when Sarah Payne's mum became a respected voice on how to deal with *****philes, just because her daughter got nonced off and killed.
Precisely. And when politicians ignore this and do it anyway they leave themselves open to resentment from voters. Our mistake was to do this for decades and then give the buggers a referendum.Quote:
Originally Posted by Burney
Happy to rephrase if it helps. The majority of people do not want mass immigration and would be happier, lets be honest, if there was hardly any immigration at all.Quote:
Originally Posted by Burney
Absolutely. Polls have shown for decades that there is absolutely not a mandate for mass immigration. However, politicians have kept doing it, with predictable consequences.Quote:
Originally Posted by Peter
I do wonder why it is that those who have consciously and deliberately ignored legitimate voter concerns for decades now seem so shocked that the voters have turned on them. What did they think would happen? Did they think this can could be kicked down the road forever?
Large numbers of people who only experience the good side of immigration lack empathy with people who experience the more negative side. I have about 6 immigrant neighbours in my small block alone, but they are the good type - all middle class professionals and no Allans (except Mesut). We have lovely ethnic-owned restaurants nearby and all the non-British kids that go to our kids' school are likely to be middle class because of the catchment area.Quote:
Originally Posted by Burney
Why should immigration bother people like me?
Yes. It's also easy to lose sight of how vastly different London is with regard to immigration to the rest of the country. London is huge, wealthy and can absorb immigrants relatively easily. The rest of the country is very, very different in this regard. And if recent politics has shown us anything, it's that Londoners really do not have a fùcking clue how the rest of the country feels.Quote:
Originally Posted by Monty92
Quote:
Originally Posted by Monty92
Unfortunately, the media will always go towards the bereaved person who bleats on well-meaningly about forgiveness and tolerance. They are seen as saintly, while the sort of person you describe would first be seen a vengeful and vindictive and would eventually be smeared by association with some right-wing group or other and thus discredited. It's how it works.
Isn't there evidence that shows the most virulent anti-immigration protests are in areas where there are few migrants - as in the success of AfD in East Germany where there is very littleQuote:
Originally Posted by Monty92