Whoa! 'Theresa May to call Arlene Foster later today to pitch border deal'?

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Originally Posted by SWv2

Is CoE relevant to politics?

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It is pretty relevant to british history as it is the result of...well, Henry VIII and all that, independence from Rome and popery ..... It is a fundamental part of our political structure in terms of the separation of church and state (and the fact that we dont have it).

It isnt directly relevant to current politics but it is still a staggering example of ignorance.

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Originally Posted by Peter

It is pretty relevant to british history as it is the result of...well, Henry VIII and all that, independence from Rome and popery ..... It is a fundamental part of our political structure in terms of the separation of church and state (and the fact that we dont have it).

It isnt directly relevant to current politics but it is still a staggering example of ignorance.

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Who is the head out of curiosity, Queenie?

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Originally Posted by World's End Stella

Yes, I think that's exactly what Peter is saying.

And I would expect exactly the same from you or I if Corbyn were to be elected PM. :shrug:

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Bloody hell, I agree with you for once :yikes:... I'm off for a lie down

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Originally Posted by SWv2

Who is the head out of curiosity, Queenie?

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Precisely. See, even you know. Even an irishman of pathological loathing for all things british knows.

We should have let you vote....

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Originally Posted by World's End Stella

Yes, I think that's exactly what Peter is saying.

And I would expect exactly the same from you or I if Corbyn were to be elected PM. :shrug:

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I would absolutely be furious if Corbyn were elected as PM. However, I wouldn't seriously hold it up as an example of why we should abandon democracy, which is what Peter is effectively suggesting. The British electorate voted for that cünt Blair three times and at no point did I seriously suggest that an end to democracy was the answer. You just have to accept that sometimes the electorate will do shít you don't like.

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Originally Posted by Peter

It also happens to be true. Talk to the average person about politics.

You know where I work. I asked 25 people here who the head of the church of england was. Around 17/18 very well educated people didnt know.

I knew the answer to that when I was 8 years old. How the **** can you not know that?????

People are horribly disengaged with politics and for that reason I have always opposed referenda. I have been very clear on that through all the years I have been on here. You know it, I know it and until the referendum was on the subject of Brexit, you agree with me.

I heard three sociologists going on and on about how a second referendum is inevitable. It ****ing isnt.....

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Ignorance does not - can not - constitute sufficient reason to deny someone a vote, I'm afraid. And on matters of national self-determination such as Scottish independence or Brexit, there really is no alternative to referenda. The EU was a special case in that there had been a profound democratic deficit on the subject for decades. There was a total failure by all the main political parties to represent a deeply-held Euroscepticism in the country and the inevitable result was the rise of a single-issue party able to create sufficient pressure on votes to force a referendum.

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Originally Posted by Burney

Ignorance does not - can not - constitute sufficient reason to deny someone a vote, I'm afraid. And on matters of national self-determination such as Scottish independence or Brexit, there really is no alternative to referenda. The EU was a special case in that there had been a profound democratic deficit on the subject for decades. There was a total failure by all the main political parties to represent a deeply-held Euroscepticism in the country and the inevitable result was the rise of a single-issue party able to create sufficient pressure on votes to force a referendum.

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Yes, to answer the point above first I think it is laughable to accuse me of wanting to abandon democracy. We have a representative, parliamentary democracy that does not necessitate the use of referenda. It is a choice taken by our representatives and is nothing to do with democracy whatsoever. They were perfectly able to take this decision themselves but chose not to do so. One can argue that it is fairer to hold the public vote, and it may well be. But please dont take some moral high ground on democracy. Its unbecoming and irrelevant.

The referendum was an electoral ploy by the PRime Minister to fight the UKIP threat in Tory constituencies. THat is all.

There is arguably as much pressure for a referendum now as there was initially, if not more. THere is plenty of evidence to suggest that people were not aware of the consequences of their vote. Why should we not hold a second referendum on the exit plan?

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Originally Posted by Peter

Yes, to answer the point above first I think it is laughable to accuse me of wanting to abandon democracy. We have a representative, parliamentary democracy that does not necessitate the use of referenda. It is a choice taken by our representatives and is nothing to do with democracy whatsoever. They were perfectly able to take this decision themselves but chose not to do so. One can argue that it is fairer to hold the public vote, and it may well be. But please dont take some moral high ground on democracy. Its unbecoming and irrelevant.

The referendum was an electoral ploy by the PRime Minister to fight the UKIP threat in Tory constituencies. THat is all.

There is arguably as much pressure for a referendum now as there was initially, if not more. THere is plenty of evidence to suggest that people were not aware of the consequences of their vote. Why should we not hold a second referendum on the exit plan?

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The Irish method.

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Originally Posted by Peter

Yes, to answer the point above first I think it is laughable to accuse me of wanting to abandon democracy. We have a representative, parliamentary democracy that does not necessitate the use of referenda. It is a choice taken by our representatives and is nothing to do with democracy whatsoever. They were perfectly able to take this decision themselves but chose not to do so. One can argue that it is fairer to hold the public vote, and it may well be. But please dont take some moral high ground on democracy. Its unbecoming and irrelevant.

The referendum was an electoral ploy by the PRime Minister to fight the UKIP threat in Tory constituencies. THat is all.

There is arguably as much pressure for a referendum now as there was initially, if not more. THere is plenty of evidence to suggest that people were not aware of the consequences of their vote. Why should we not hold a second referendum on the exit plan?

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That's the slippery slope with referenda, when do you stop? I agree, there should be no need for them in a representative democracy, if people wanted Brexit that badly, they should have voted en masse for Farage. :shrug:

Decisions as important as Brexit should be taken by intelligent people on the back of extensive quantitative analysis and consideration of public opinion. And with the exception of UKIP, all major parties considered the option and rejected it because there wasn't a strong intellectual argument for it. Sadly, a power hungry conservative PM exposed us to the vagaries of a one off vote and we are now about to pay the price for it.

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Originally Posted by World's End Stella

That's the slippery slope with referenda, when do you stop? I agree, there should be no need for them in a representative democracy, if people wanted Brexit that badly, they should have voted en masse for Farage. :shrug:

Decisions as important as Brexit should be taken by intelligent people on the back of extensive quantitative analysis and consideration of public opinion. And with the exception of UKIP, all major parties considered the option and rejected it because there wasn't a strong intellectual argument for it. Sadly, a power hungry conservative PM exposed us to the vagaries of a one off vote and we are now about to pay the price for it.

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When do you stop? When does an issue deserve it and when does it not? None of these questions are answered through any theory of democracy. They are just a consequence of the political climate.

Of course, it doesnt help when it is such a narrow victory. A thumping 60% would end the debate but it was so narrow, and the issue so complicated, that thee notion of the voice of the people is fairly weak.

I dont want another referendum and I dont want endless debate. Its done, we are leaving, just get on with it. But I do resent the assumption that this is democracy at its finest.

I am also hugely sceptical about Ash's analysis that this is somehow a strike against the political elite, as though the leave campaign wasnt led and orchestrated by part of the political elite. As though the right wing of the Conservative party is some marginalised, disenfranchised mob screaming for a voice.

Its all very interesting of course....but we do have a country to run and it isnt really in anyone's interests that we spend the next three years doing nothing but argue about Brexit.