Absolutely. In fact, I'm struggling to think of an outcome that won't result in hilarity at some level. At the same time, I'm not convinced that any outcome will be that different than any other. So we can watch people get incredibly upset for very little reason.Quote:
Originally Posted by PSRB
Great fun.
This weekend really has seemed like the remainers' last stand.
The "eleventy million" estimated as being on the march on Saturday by its official auditor, Diane Abbott - including the five million "all genuine:-D" signatures on the petition - are pretty much giving up all pretentions of being champions of democracy. It's now all about getting Article 50 revoked, to squash Brexit at a stroke.
Not going to happen. Nor are these "indicative votes" going to be taken seriously. The options are now between the PM's deal, if she can somehow threaten, promise and plead with enough people to back it, or leaving on WTO.
I wouldn’t discount a really soft version of Brexit that is a technical exit only and satisfies virtually non of the ERG’s red lines - it’s probably the most popular option in parliament.Quote:
Originally Posted by Yesterday Once More
Except when your mate Berni does itQuote:
Originally Posted by Sir C
Yes, but that premise is fundamentally unsound. :shrug:Quote:
Originally Posted by WES
I think the most depressing thing is that it's all so woefully short-sighted. Everyone is fighting to 'win' the battlefield and is giving absolutely no thought to what that battlefield will look like when the fighting eventually stops - or what they'll do with it. Remainers won't survive the backlash of failing to deliver Brexit, but don't want to acknowledge the fact, while many of those at the other extreme seem happier to be permanent rebels than compromise on anything.
Meanwhile, those who have proudly styled themselves centrists have revealed themselves to be self-serving shysters with no principles other than maintaining a cozy status quo and who would be as home on the left of the tory party as on the right of the Labour party.
The one upside is that it has revealed our current party and electoral system to be wholly unfit for the purpose of coping with the defining political issue of our time. The 'big tent' two-party system cannot survive this.
Are you actually a girl?Quote:
Originally Posted by Herbert Augustus Chapman
The problem with that, of course, is that Tory MPs across the country have been told categorically by their constituency parties that they will face electoral meltdown (mass-cancellation of membership, no volunteers, no canvassers, no nothing) should they facilitate such an outcome.Quote:
Originally Posted by WES
That doesn't mean they won't be stupid and arrogant enough to do it, but it will destroy them if they do.
Oddly enough, the longer this thing has gone on, the more I've come to admire the strategy of Labour. They've committed to nothing from which they cannot retreat and have given themselves plausible deniability on any and every outcome.
Except:Quote:
Originally Posted by Burney
1. No specific version of leave wasn't specified on the paper.
2. And of all the versions offered by the various leave campaigns, none offered WTO and none looked anything like May's bodge.
3. And the vote was interpretted by May's two unelected advisors in such a way that led to red line the majority don't support, some of which are completely incompatible anyway. There is no way she can leave the CU, avoid a hard border and keep the union.
4. Due to Gove knifing BoJo and Leadsome knifing herself, May didn't have a mandate from the Tory party for her version of Brexit.
5. When she tried to get one from the public, they told her to eff off and she lost her majority.
6. Thus, having no mandate from the referendum, party or general election for any specific form of Brexit, and having lost the two advisors who drew the red lines, she just to bullshît her way through, lying about the backdrops she'd signed up to to her cabinet, party, the HoC and the public. Hence the Chequers resignations.
7. She hasn't even sought, let alone built a consensus in her own cabinet, let alone her party, the Commons or the country as a whole. So we have a deal hated by all. {Had she actually levelled with the public about the compromises required and asked them which way to go, she might not be in this position now.}
8. So the only way of resolving this is to put the question back to the people.
9. In a democracy, people are allowed to change their minds. We had two elections in 1910, 1924 and 1974. 1950-51 and 1964-66, are also shorter periods than since the referendum.
10. "When the facts change, I change my mind. What do you do, sir?" The facts have changed so let people vote on remain vs no deal. The Leave promised in 2016 is no longer attainable.
11. Oh, and the VL campaign director said at the time he'd be happy for a confirmatory vote on the deal.
12. Does your reticence have anything to do with the fact that, barring two ties last summer, every single poll since early March last year - more than 12 months - has Remain ahead? So much for the people's will and all that.
Oh, and ftr, while I want a 2nd vote, I don't support the remain vs May's deal option. Most leavers want a no deal Brexit, so that should be on the paper.
In an ideal world, we could just do it with AV, but I worry about the idiots not understanding how to vote a 2nd pref. So we should do it like the French. 1 normal vote on the choice of 3 options. And if no option reaches 50%, then we have a run off two weeks later.
That way, May's deal goes in the first round, and then we can actually argue for 2 weeks if we want remain or no deal.
If that's what Parl wants then it is democratic, by the very definition of how our parliamentary democracy works.
All the polling's here:Quote:
Originally Posted by WES
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Opinio...m#Remain/Leave
Scroll down for the 3 way polling. {Or up for whether we were right or wrong to vote leave.}
ISTR the leaflet sent to every household said that leaving the EU meant leaving the single market, customs union and ECJ jurisdiction. It then said that the government "will implement your decision". That's quite specific.Quote:
Originally Posted by Ganpati's Goonerz--AFC's Aboriginal Fertility Cult