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Originally Posted by Ash

Actually I did still support those teams full of those over-hyped thundercùnts. At least a bit, but there's a difference between having reservations, which might lead to quietly being indifferent about their results and success, and loudly calling for their defeat and trollishly revelling in it when it happens, and issuing proclaimations against those who have supported them (albeit in your case, I understand, in some jest). Monty's claims of intellectual consistency are at best misguided and at worst non-sensical but others have worked through that one.

I certainly respect your sense of non-conformity, as something of a non-comformist myself when it comes to certain matters of national pride (where we will often disagree), but I do generally support English and somtimes British sport as a default position - as my local team in international competition, even though I have much admired football teams from France, Germany and elsewhere in the last couple of decades. I have pride in my support for Arsenal because of family roots in both Woolwich and Islington, and without local support where would many teams be? I'm not saying that supporting England at football should be compulsory or expected, just that there's no need to go too far the other way and cùnt people off who do, and rub their faces in England's inevitable defeat when it happens.

Slight aside: I remember the Septic Arsenal blogger 7amkickoff (who sometimes writes some good stuff tbf) doing a piece about how someone he knew over there was supporting Leicester in their season of glory, and how he could say nothing to suggest that supporting Arsenal was a good idea, because Leicester were, at that moment, better than us. 7amkickoff is what you might call a leftist internationalist who seemingly despises the 'parochial/chauvinist' notions of both international competition and support for a local club team. What he didn't seem to grasp was that if everyone only supported the best teams, then why would any of the other teams even exist? I wanted him to understand that some of us support Arsenal because of geographical and family connections to the club, and even if/when we are shít, the club will get new fans because of these historical and geographical connections.

I wasn't getting all Norman Tebbit btw, not least because you strongly identify as English and support England at cricket :-)

And please don't claim to have 'won' a debate before it has finished. There's a good chap. :thumbup:

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Sorry, but the fact that you admit your support for the England team waxes and wanes completely undermines your dig about patriotism. If support can be contingent on factors other than nationality, then clearly patriotism and the football team have nothing to do with one another.

Besides, let’s not be disingenuous. You were clearly suggesting at the end of your post that patriotism and support for England went hand in hand and that it was legitimate to question the patriotism of those of us who wanted England to lose. That is straight-up Tebbitism.

My horror at the notion of a Spurs-dominated team winning the World Cup was genuine. I thus felt genuine relief and delight when Croatia’s second goal went in and I expressed it. Why should I not? Because some people wanted the other team to win? Bòllocks. That’s not how football works, I’m afraid. Cùnting off and gleeful trolling are very much part of the package.

I think the quip about patriotism might be being taken a little too seriously.

Anyway, Tim Stillman shares his thoughts on the Tottinghamisation of England:

https://arseblog.com/2018/07/ticket-to-ride/

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Originally Posted by Ash

I think the quip about patriotism might be being taken a little too seriously.

Anyway, Tim Stillman shares his thoughts on the Tottinghamisation of England:

https://arseblog.com/2018/07/ticket-to-ride/

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Yeah Ash, stop trying to dictate people’s gut instincts to them and tell them to turn the tap off on how they feel, you fascist c*nt.

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Originally Posted by Monty92

Yeah Ash, stop trying to dictate people’s gut instincts to them and tell them to turn the tap off on how they feel, you fascist c*nt.

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:hehe: Turn that tap OFF young man!

Anyway, I never said them fings.

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Originally Posted by Monty92

For me, Clive, it's simply about intellectual integrity and consistency.

I'd compare it to people like Jorge who quite clearly want Brexit to end badly because it will validate their own political ideology. That's obviously pretty contemptible, but it's at least loyal to his driving motivation (to be proven right). The real crime is the lack of intellectual integrity he shows by denying that this is his true, guiding motive.

Now, you could say I am similarly contemptible for wanting the country of my birth to lose a football game because I don't like some of the players. But I'm at least being consistent to my true, guiding motive (to see players I hate lose). And the only negative consequence is that England lose a football game.

I'd have thought that would be forgivable, if not understandable to those less bothered by such trifling matters as intellectual consistency and integrity :shrug:

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Point of Information: Jorge's sort (You? Certainly B and Sir C and so on. Indeed, lefties generally) are not motivated by a will to validate their political ideology; stands to reason as they don't really have one.

No, they don't care about being, or even being proven, right. Their principle, perhaps only motive is simply perpetual disagreement with those they don't like. Being right doesn't matter to them so much as their present adversary being "wrong".

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Originally Posted by Ash

Part of the 'charm', if one might use that word, of international football is precisely that it does, or should, allow the tribal rivalries to dissolve for a short while and for fans of the game to be united behind a team which is local to all of them.

Perhaps deep down we tire of the compulsory hatred for people who follow a team with a different colour shirt from another part of town. I met a bloke at the cricket last week - a fellow Middlesex fan watching them play the Surrey rivals - who was Spurs, and as he said: "It's ok - it's the summer".

The other thing is that World Cups are a chance for non-football fans to experience, and maybe enjoy, the ups and downs of football.

I admit to having my doubts about the Spurs component of this team, but eventually decided it was actually preferable to the collection of supposedly word-class thundercùnts of previous years who achieved rather less than this group of more modest abillity.

One way of measuring 'passion' is how hard it hurts to lose and long it hurts for. It hurt quite a bit last night, but not much, if any today. So I care a lot less than the two days of hurt I expect when Arsenal go out of something, which I would expect, but others might feel differently.

What is notable is that the people who hate England the most here are perhaps the three with the most proudly and robustly held right wing views, with a strong sideline in misanthropy. Interesting, that, should they ever question anyone's patriotism. :-D

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The Spurs-thing is merely a superbly convenient (for Arsenal supporters) McGuffin, imo. A certain sort would still dislike the England football team even if it was full of players from Palace, Piccadilly or Peckham Town. In absentia Kane & Co., it would be "How shít is international football", or whatever else. Any excuse not to support England.