When is the Labour manifesto released? Eagerly awaiting to see how much

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Originally Posted by Sir C

The point is that whatever statistics anyone wants to throw at the matter won’t change the reality that socialism always ends with poor *******s having their testes coshed. Because it never, ever works. It’s a system that fails to take into account, or care about, basic human wualities like responsibility, ambition, compassion and decency. The only way it can be implemented is via coercion.

To add insult to injury, after you’ve suffered the gulags and the electrodes, you end up having to eat your pets. :venezuela:

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C, you've just basically ignored all my data and just said "Whatevs, it's always bad." and tried to get out of it by switching from the Lab party's post-war economic record to the record of soi disant socialist regimes.

Firstly, every Lab govt believed in a mixed market economy so weren't socialist.

Secondly, every govt was led by the right of the party and was brought down by the left for not being lefty enough,

Atlee brought down over prescription charges in 1951, Wilson by In Place of Strife Union reform in 1970, Callaghan by the Winter of Discontent in 1979, and Blair by Brown in 2007.

Thus we can rightly consider that those govts were centre-lefties, not socialists, and this explains why, other than intl shocks over which they had no control (add in the breakdown of Bretton Woods that screwed Heath) they basically left the economy is as good a state as they found it.

It's one thing to say I'm a Tory and I don't like Labour.

It's another to try and rewrite economic history, as B did, or to try and say that they must be wrong'uns simply because real socialist regimes are.

Most of the time, the party's been run by Oxbridge public school boys. That's not exactly Maduro or Castro, is it? {Indeed, that one of the issues of my wing of the party. We'd rather have an Oxbridge public school boy [or girl] than Jez. But ssshhh, don't tell anyone as we're not meant to say this publicly.}

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Originally Posted by Sir C

And the rigged election? Was that all a CIA plot?

Is your argument here that socialism works because Bolivia? Would you like some examples osprey socialism failing? You don’t need m ego list them really, do you?

Fascist death squads indeed.

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It has not been proven to have been rigged. The body making the accusation is financed by Washington and another international electoral body has refuted the allegations.

And I said "Not necessarily" above.

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Originally Posted by Ganpati's Goonerz--AFC's Aboriginal Fertility Cult

C, you've just basically ignored all my data and just said "Whatevs, it's always bad." and tried to get out of it by switching from the Lab party's post-war economic record to the record of soi disant socialist regimes.

Firstly, every Lab govt believed in a mixed market economy so weren't socialist.

Secondly, every govt was led by the right of the party and was brought down by the left for not being lefty enough,

Atlee brought down over prescription charges in 1951, Wilson by In Place of Strife Union reform in 1970, Callaghan by the Winter of Discontent in 1979, and Blair by Brown in 2007.

Thus we can rightly consider that those govts were centre-lefties, not socialists, and this explains why, other than intl shocks over which they had no control (add in the breakdown of Bretton Woods that screwed Heath) they basically left the economy is as good a state as they found it.

It's one thing to say I'm a Tory and I don't like Labour.

It's another to try and rewrite economic history, as B did, or to try and say that they must be wrong'uns simply because real socialist regimes are.

Most of the time, the party's been run by Oxbridge public school boys. That's not exactly Maduro or Castro, is it? {Indeed, that one of the issues of my wing of the party. We'd rather have an Oxbridge public school boy [or girl] than Jez. But ssshhh, don't tell anyone as we're not meant to say this publicly.}

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It's one thing to say I'm a Tory and I don't like Labour.

I’m not a Tory. I’ve just seen the horrors of socialism at first hand. My father grew up in the Netherlands under a socialist dictatorship. I grew up in England in the 1970s. I travelled extensively behind the iron curtain. I have studied history.

The Labour Party has always sheltered the likes of Benn, Wilson and Livingstone who would see us delivered into the hands of the Soviets.

Call me old fashioned, but I rather like my country and many of its citizens. I do not wish ill upon them. I do not wish the UK to resemble the places I saw in the 1980s. Romania, East Germany and Poland, so beloved of your leftist comrades, were no fun at all.

Anyone who can support leftism is either evil or uninformed.

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Originally Posted by Sir C

It's one thing to say I'm a Tory and I don't like Labour.

I’m not a Tory. I’ve just seen the horrors of socialism at first hand. My father grew up in the Netherlands under a socialist dictatorship. I grew up in England in the 1970s. I travelled extensively behind the iron curtain. I have studied history.

The Labour Party has always sheltered the likes of Benn, Wilson and Livingstone who would see us delivered into the hands of the Soviets.

Call me old fashioned, but I rather like my country and many of its citizens. I do not wish ill upon them. I do not wish the UK to resemble the places I saw in the 1980s. Romania, East Germany and Poland, so beloved of your leftist comrades, were no fun at all.

Anyone who can support leftism is either evil or uninformed.

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because there never was one. Unless you're pulling the old "Nazis as National Socialists" old guff out of the bag.

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Originally Posted by Sir C

It's one thing to say I'm a Tory and I don't like Labour.

I’m not a Tory. I’ve just seen the horrors of socialism at first hand. My father grew up in the Netherlands under a socialist dictatorship. I grew up in England in the 1970s. I travelled extensively behind the iron curtain. I have studied history.

The Labour Party has always sheltered the likes of Benn, Wilson and Livingstone who would see us delivered into the hands of the Soviets.

Call me old fashioned, but I rather like my country and many of its citizens. I do not wish ill upon them. I do not wish the UK to resemble the places I saw in the 1980s. Romania, East Germany and Poland, so beloved of your leftist comrades, were no fun at all.

Anyone who can support leftism is either evil or uninformed.

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Yes, but we didn't though, did we? Despite being in power for 16 years during the cold war, we didn't once have you over to the soviets.

Indeed, it was us that secretly started the nuke programme (without telling the proper lefties in the cabinet, let alone on the backbenches) to keep you, I and the rest of HM's subjects free from evil Stalinism.

We introduced a welfare state that WSC was proud of that took away any reason for the plebs to rise up and kill you, or to sell you out to the soviets.

After one of your mob was nobbing the same bint as the Ruskie naval attache, we took over and won the world cup and then legalised abortion, divorce and poofery.

Our economic policies in the 60s were identical to the Tories, that's why the post war Keynesian consensus of stop-go demand management was known as Butskellism and RAB Buttler and Hugh Gaitskell were in complete agreement.

Every time the left of our party got uppity, we trashed the govt rather than give in to them, whether over prescription charges in '51 or the unions in '69-70, or '78-9.

Post-Thatcher, we didn't undo her privatisations, but simply introduced a windfall tax on the privatised utilities, while also creating the independent MPC to set monetary policy, doing more to stabilise the long term economic prospects than anything the Tories have done since the repeal of the corn laws.

You say you've studied history, C.

Well read the above, you know it's true.

And given that, you can't really claim that the moderate, governing wing of our party are in the same league Maduro or Chavez. We're basically like SuperMac but with added northern accents.

And every time the left get uppity, we stop them. By crashing the govt or splitting the party.

I would suggest that my wing of the party have proved themselves to be as proud patriots as any Tory, prepared to put national interest over party needs, ideology or dogma at every single turn once in power.

Thoughts?

Nearly 6pm and they are still in the manifesto meeting spending our money. Then Diane Abbott has to tot it all up.