You've literally just ignored everything Burney's written about the horrors taking place in Germany right now and the cause of it.Quote:
Originally Posted by eastgermanautos
And while you're praising Germany for restoring their reputation after killing 6 million Jews, then imagine how German Jews feel about another far right party rising to (albeit modest) power.
I think "albeit modest" is the key. People want to make money, and parliamentary centrism is the governmental form most conducive to that.Quote:
Originally Posted by Monty92
As for Germany, I was there -- recently. Berlin, Wolfsburg, Munich, Vienna, Sazburg, towns in and around. And I'm going back next week. There may be concentrations of immigrants, but I found that most places were not "overrun." This is just color reporting, whipping up hysteria. You can always point to some slimy, unkempt degenerate and generalize that into the rule. I have no doubt that some fvcked up **** happens, such as the Cologne sexual assaults of a few months ago. This is what police and security forces are for.
Crudely put: seventy years ago Germans killed off anybody who wasn't of their narrowly-defined ethnic background. Now we want to cry bloody murder when a few more darkies get in there? Uncool! If white Germans want to have more people they should have more white, nordic kids. Simple.
OK, first of all, Vienna and Salzburg are in Austria. It's a completely different country.Quote:
Originally Posted by eastgermanautos
Second, you seem to be arguing that this generation of Germans effectively deserve what they're getting because of what happened 70 years ago. That's an utterly fùcked up way of looking at things and actually pretty fûcking sick.
Merkel opened the doors to a crimewave, terrorism and all the other delights of Muslim immigration without consulting the German people. Now they are expressing their dissatisfaction with that decision. It's called democracy.
When a group of British rabbis visited Greek refugee camps, they were told to wear baseball caps over their kippahs. Otherwise they'd be attacked by the lovely refugees.Quote:
Originally Posted by Monty92
If I were a German Jew, I'd be far more scared of the refugees than AfD.
You have a street fighter's instinct for exaggerating some small point at the expense of the large. I know Vienna and Salzburg are in Austria. I'm shooting a movie in Austria, have met with basically every major Austrian film production house and producer. The movie itself is set in Austria in 1911, so yes, I do know. German-speaking world. I visited not too long ago the Synchron Stage, outside Vienna, built by Goebbels to put on propaganda performances of Wagner and other favored Nazi composers.Quote:
Originally Posted by Burney
In terms of the larger point, of course the present-day residents of a country are building their efforts on the historical efforts of their countrymen. We react to an environment. Germans in the 1950s found it difficult to pretend as if nothing had happened. Now, they have the opportunity to behave well; and they do it, I think, with a view to what happened before. These Muslims are an issue, not gonna lie. I found it a bit chippy in London actually. So I get it. But one has an obligation not to freak the fvck out every ten minutes. You want to do well with your own life, and if you get a swastika tattooed on your face, that works against said goal.
You accept that 'these muslims are an issue', but at the same time condemn anyone who is concerned about the issue and seeks to do something about it democratically as a Nazi? The political mainstream in Germany has colluded in refusing to address the issue - or even acknowledge that an issue exists. Given which, it's hardly surprising that Germans are turning to a party that does. These are not people with swastikas tattooed on their faces. They're ordinary decent people - many of them former CDU voters - who have turned to AfD.Quote:
Originally Posted by eastgermanautos
The problem is that the German desire to 'behave well' in the light of their historical wrongs has led them to behave in a way that - while it may give them a happy glow in the short-term - has massive and damaging implications in the long term not just for them, but for the whole of mainland Europe. Why should the rest of Europe suffer for the Germans' guilty conscience? Germany's actions were irresponsible and reckless and it's fair to point that out without being called a fascist or told you're 'freaking out'.
The mass, uncontrolled immigration of millions of young men from completely alien cultures with very different values and beliefs has profound long-term consequences for the society that imports them. History has shown that muslims do not assimilate in western cultures, so any idea that everyone will rub along and it'll all turn out OK is simply fantasy. It is not 'freaking out' to recognise and address these facts. Neither is it freaking out to acknowledge the demonstrable fact that these mass importations have led to serious social problems (to put it mildly).
Of course, the problem with debates about immigration is that they always descend into an antagonistic binary. One side calls the other gullible fools and terrorist sympathisers, while the other calls its opponents bigots, racists, Nazis, etc. It is much more helpful to see it in terms of competing virtues. One side believes there is a moral duty to accept immigrants, while the other recognises that there are negative effects to immigration and asks whether any moral case for immigration justifies these negatives for the existing population. There is no need to impute bad motives to either side, since both are simply expressing legitimate concerns and neither is bad or mean by virtue of their stance. Unfortunately, nobody ever wants to argue along these lines, so instead we get stuck with the usual mudslinging and no sensible debate is ever achieved.
I would have thought the irony was that Germany's attempt to behave well and move on from their past has led directly to the rise of an extreme far right party.Quote:
Originally Posted by Burney
Quite funny seeing you both accept that Austria and Germany are different countries. I mean, they are for now, but.....:)
I wont pick up on several of the points you make there regarding immigration and muslims because we have done this to death.
Not really an irony so much as an entirely predictable case of cause and effect. Newton's Third Law and all that. :shrug:Quote:
Originally Posted by Peter
Irony in that their attempt to escape from their past has actually recreated it. The problem with wanting to appear to be an open and tolerant country is that most people are not tolerant and dont want their country to be open.Quote:
Originally Posted by Burney
This is a strange thing to say. The people of Europe have been - and remain in large part - incredibly tolerant of the mass migration that has been imposed on them against their wishes. They may have objected to it, but they have accepted it with incredibly good grace, which stems from an acknowledgement that the overwhelming people who come here were dealt a shít hand in life and are simply seeking a better one.Quote:
Originally Posted by Peter