Now I'm pretty neutral about Brexit generally; but there is one narrative that really

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Originally Posted by SWv2

Is there not two separate but sometimes linked/confused issues.

People did not know what they were voting for, this is very plain and simple to understand. They were voting to Leave the EU or to stay within the EU. This essentially is the crux of your rant and for that I applaud you.

The secondary issue however, and one I have only seen alluded to as quite frankly I pay little attention to the life politic and especially when it is another’s mess, is the claim that people were openly and knowingly lied to in the run up to making their decision.

This is I have seen as the reason for a lot of anger and indeed the call for a second vote.

What confuses me further is the simple truth that people are lied to each and every time there is a vote or election of any type so why is this so different??

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I’m afraid your argument falls down on the fact that the only people who are angry and call for a second vote are those who voted Remain in the first place. Those who voted Leave - and were supposedly lied to (and therefore would have the greatest reason to feel aggrieved, you’d have thought) show no desire whatsoever for a second vote.

In other words, the call for a second vote is just a cynical call by the tantrummy little people who lost for another go. They try to justify this cynical petulance with the patronising argument that they are just trying to protect us ignorant, common, uneducated Brexit voters from ourselves, since we are too stupid to be allowed to vote.

Those calling for a second vote are - frankly -middle-class snobs outraged that the lower orders have dared to defy their will and inconvenience them. When confronted by the fact that Brexit voters have no interest in being saved from themselves, the mask slips and they invariably descend into naked class hatred that characterises Brexit voters as racist, Neo-Nazi animals.

They are - frankly - arseholes.

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Originally Posted by Burney

I’m afraid your argument falls down on the fact that the only people who are angry and call for a second vote are those who voted Remain in the first place. Those who voted Leave - and supposedly lied to (and therefore would have the greatest reason to feel aggrieved, you’d have thought) show no desire whatsoever for a second vote.

In other words, the call for a second vote is just a cynical call by the tantrummy little people who lost for another go. They try to justify this cynical petulance with the patronising, argument that they are just trying to protect us ignorant, common, uneducated Brexit voters from ourselves.

Those calling for a second vote are - frankly -middle-class snobs outraged that the lower orders have dared to defy their will and inconvenience them. When confronted by the fact that Brexit voters have no interest in being saved from themselves, the mask slips and they invariably descend into naked class hatred that characterises Brexit voters as racist, Nero-Nazi animals.

They are - frankly - arseholes.

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Excuse me, where do you get the information that people who voted leave have shown no desire for a second vote? I haven't seen a single poll that says one way or the other

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Originally Posted by Pokster

Excuse me, where do you get the information that people who voted leave have shown no desire for a second vote? I haven't seen a single poll that says one way or the other

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:rolleyes: Yes. The polls are pretty much the same as they were in June 2016.
Which would kind of be the evidence that there is no groundswell for a second vote, wouldn’t it? After all, if people had changed their minds in large numbers either way, you’d expect to see that reflected when pollsters ask them if they want a second vote, wouldn’t you?

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Originally Posted by Burney

I’m afraid your argument falls down on the fact that the only people who are angry and call for a second vote are those who voted Remain in the first place. Those who voted Leave - and were supposedly lied to (and therefore would have the greatest reason to feel aggrieved, you’d have thought) show no desire whatsoever for a second vote.

In other words, the call for a second vote is just a cynical call by the tantrummy little people who lost for another go. They try to justify this cynical petulance with the patronising argument that they are just trying to protect us ignorant, common, uneducated Brexit voters from ourselves, since we are too stupid to be allowed to vote.

Those calling for a second vote are - frankly -middle-class snobs outraged that the lower orders have dared to defy their will and inconvenience them. When confronted by the fact that Brexit voters have no interest in being saved from themselves, the mask slips and they invariably descend into naked class hatred that characterises Brexit voters as racist, Neo-Nazi animals.

They are - frankly - arseholes.

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I correct you, mine was not an argument.

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Originally Posted by Burney

I’m afraid your argument falls down on the fact that the only people who are angry and call for a second vote are those who voted Remain in the first place. Those who voted Leave - and were supposedly lied to (and therefore would have the greatest reason to feel aggrieved, you’d have thought) show no desire whatsoever for a second vote.

In other words, the call for a second vote is just a cynical call by the tantrummy little people who lost for another go. They try to justify this cynical petulance with the patronising argument that they are just trying to protect us ignorant, common, uneducated Brexit voters from ourselves, since we are too stupid to be allowed to vote.

Those calling for a second vote are - frankly -middle-class snobs outraged that the lower orders have dared to defy their will and inconvenience them. When confronted by the fact that Brexit voters have no interest in being saved from themselves, the mask slips and they invariably descend into naked class hatred that characterises Brexit voters as racist, Neo-Nazi animals.

They are - frankly - arseholes.

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Not true, B.

Every single Lab held seat has a majority, however small, for a 2nd vote.

And given many Lab seats voted Leave, this clearly shows that some Leave voters, however small a number, have changed their minds.

This may not include anyone you know personally, and it may be only a small number, but some have and given the closeness of the vote, it's enough to tip the balance.

So if the majority of the public now want a 2nd vote, by however small a majority, and the majority would now vote remain, by however small a majority, the democratic thing to do is have a 2nd vote.

There are some people who you don't know and who don't post on the internet who voted Leave without actually being obsessive about it and can now see that the promises weren't kept, and therefore think on balance we should cancel Brexit.

Or do you claim to know all 17m personally?

Because if not, you can't really say what they all want, can you?

By 17m, you mean me and my mates.

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Originally Posted by Burney

:rolleyes: Yes. The polls are pretty much the same as they were in June 2016.
Which would kind of be the evidence that there is no groundswell for a second vote, wouldn’t it? After all, if people had changed their minds in large numbers either way, you’d expect to see that reflected when pollsters ask them if they want a second vote, wouldn’t you?

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pretty much the same??? So the poll was amaxingly close the first time and pretty much the same shows there is no groiundswell for a second vote... quite frankly that has more holes in it than our defence.

the Polls before the vote showed the vote as remain, so to use an opinion poll in your reasoning is plainly wrong

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Originally Posted by Ganpati's Goonerz--AFC's Aboriginal Fertility Cult

Not true, B.

Every single Lab held seat has a majority, however small, for a 2nd vote.

And given many Lab seats voted Leave, this clearly shows that some Leave voters, however small a number, have changed their minds.

This may not include anyone you know personally, and it may be only a small number, but some have and given the closeness of the vote, it's enough to tip the balance.

So if the majority of the public now want a 2nd vote, by however small a majority, and the majority would now vote remain, by however small a majority, the democratic thing to do is have a 2nd vote.

There are some people who you don't know and who don't post on the internet who voted Leave without actually being obsessive about it and can now see that the promises weren't kept, and therefore think on balance we should cancel Brexit.

Or do you claim to know all 17m personally?

Because if not, you can't really say what they all want, can you?

By 17m, you mean me and my mates.

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Nice try, but no.

The polling shows a generally favourable attitude to a referendum on the terms of the final deal - i.e. The deal on the table or no deal. However, that favourable attitude drops off a cliff the minute it's suggested that an option to remain is on the ballot.

So stop talking bóllocks. :-)

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Originally Posted by Ganpati's Goonerz--AFC's Aboriginal Fertility Cult

Not true, B.

Every single Lab held seat has a majority, however small, for a 2nd vote.

And given many Lab seats voted Leave, this clearly shows that some Leave voters, however small a number, have changed their minds.

This may not include anyone you know personally, and it may be only a small number, but some have and given the closeness of the vote, it's enough to tip the balance.

So if the majority of the public now want a 2nd vote, by however small a majority, and the majority would now vote remain, by however small a majority, the democratic thing to do is have a 2nd vote.

There are some people who you don't know and who don't post on the internet who voted Leave without actually being obsessive about it and can now see that the promises weren't kept, and therefore think on balance we should cancel Brexit.

Or do you claim to know all 17m personally?

Because if not, you can't really say what they all want, can you?

By 17m, you mean me and my mates.

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Hang about, this is all well and good, but surely we've, y'know, had a vote about this already? Surely we should wait until we've done what was voted for before voting again?

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Originally Posted by Burney

Nice try, but no.

The polling shows a generally favourable attitude to a referendum on the terms of the final deal - i.e. The deal on the table or no deal. However, that favourable attitude drops off a cliff the minute it's suggested that an option to remain is on the ballot.

So stop talking bóllocks. :-)

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Out of interest, how you you feel about a referendum without a 'remain' option on the ballot?

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Originally Posted by Monty92

Out of interest, how you you feel about a referendum without a 'remain' option on the ballot?

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Right now, I'd love it. This deal is so execrable one suspects the idea all along has been to present us with something so awful that remaining seems like the more attractive option.