So it seems our chums in the ever-democratic EU are threatening to suspend Poland's

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Originally Posted by World's End Stella

The UK was a rather important member of the EU and heavily influenced many decisions and there is no factual basis for the claim that the EU will become more 'undemocratic' with time. You just make that bit up because it suits your argument.

I'm happy to lose some control provided I think the upside merits it and I know that we can always withdraw if we no longer want to be part of it. As that is the case with the EU, I see no strong case for Leave beyond immigration scaremongering a very dubious long term global trading strategy that has so many holes it doesn't stand up to even the slightest scrutiny.

As we know, the under 55s voted Remain, the over 55s voted overwhelmingly to Leave. I think we all know why the older generation voted the way they did, dear old England and all that nonsense.

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Like most of your glib sort, you forget that the over 55s were the people who voted us into Europe in the first place. They have experienced more of Europe for longer than anyone else and they found it wanting. They are also the generation who can remember what life was like before the EU and if, with hindsight, they decided they rather preferred it, I'd say that represents a fairly damning judgement on the 'benefits' of EU membership to ordinary people, wouldn't you?

As for your assertion that 'we can leave if we want to', it's obvious bullshīt. We had one chance in my lifetime to leave due to an unprecedented and almost certainly never-to-be-repeated set of circumstances. Thankfully, we took it. And even then - with a clear vote in favour of leaving - our overlords (to whom you are happy to cede more and more powers, by the way) are doing everything in their power to frustrate that democratic decision.

Oh, and it's beside the point, but there's nothing 'scaremongering' about this country's immigration issue, I can assure you.

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Originally Posted by Sir C

There is nothing nonsensical about 'dear old England'. You may not understand patriotism, having chosen to abandon your homeland, but you might at least display sufficient politeness to allow the existance of such a concept in the nation which has welcomed you and allowed you to settle and build a life.

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The nonsensical bit is the idea that voting Leave would in some way allow a return to something like the dear old England of their childhood.

Not to mention that that dear old England included rationing, massive debts, socialism far beyond what we have now, lower living standards, a hand out to the IMF, rampant racism, sh1t food and seriously bad clothes at various times.

enter into a post-war partnership with Britain. That's why we weren't mentioned; they presumed we'd happily go along with it out of friendship and mutual respect.

But then, they would say that, wouldn't they :-\

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Originally Posted by Ganpati's Goonerz--AFC's Aboriginal Fertility Cult

Germany would create a Mitteleuropa economic association, ostensibly egalitarian but actually dominated by Germany. Members would include the new buffer states.

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Originally Posted by Ganpati's Goonerz--AFC's Aboriginal Fertility Cult

Oh, Berni, have you ever studied the terms of the German 1914 September Programme? This was just after the war had started when they thought they were about to secure a quick victory.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Septemberprogramm

Look at this bit:

Germany would create a Mitteleuropa economic association, ostensibly egalitarian but actually dominated by Germany. Members would include the new buffer states.

Don't you think the Greeks et al will see similarities between Kaiser Willy's aims and the current EU under Merkel?

Benelux countries to be vassal states or annexed. Poland under their control. France seriously weakened so never a threat again. Only country not mentioned? GB. Because they obviously intended to have a 2nd war. Once they had all of Europe under their control, they would be able to spend on the navy instead of the army. The Programme states they want Belgian Channel ports.

So 100 years after they settled on this path, it has come to fruition.

Oh, as a Remainer, can I ask you one thing?

GB Foreign Policy has had two major planks for 500 years. To stop Europe being dominated by one power, and making sure that the Channel Ports were not all in hostile hands. In his excellent book on WW1, Forgotten Victory, Gary Sheffield starts by quoting Lord Burghley, Elizabeth's principal minister, telling her we can't let the Dagos take the Low Countries because these are "the counterscarp to your Majesty's kingdom."

Counterscarps are the outermost defensive parts of a fortress.

So, Brexit, imo, has done away with 500 years of GB foreign policy. We now have a united Europe against us, with no continental allies, with the Channel Ports all in the hands of powers who will always support the EU in the event of any form of conflict with GB. I'm obv not talking about war, but it seems to me that all these Brexiteers who bang on about war and history haven't really thought this through.

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This is nonsense, I'm afraid, gg. By leaving the EU, we have in fact extricated ourselves from the German hegemony you describe - into which our leaders were happily drawing us further. It is now the case that, in fact, the EU will be surrounded by three military powers - the UK, Russia and Turkey - that are not contained within it and harbour various degrees of hostility towards it. That prospect, i suspect, will keep them in check.

We now need to arm for the coming wars.

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Originally Posted by World's End Stella

The nonsensical bit is the idea that voting Leave would in some way allow a return to something like the dear old England of their childhood.

Not to mention that that dear old England included rationing, massive debts, socialism far beyond what we have now, lower living standards, a hand out to the IMF, rampant racism, sh1t food and seriously bad clothes at various times.

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Well, the rationing, massive debts and socialism were a direct result of sorting out Europe's shít, the lower living standards, racism, **** food and dubious fashion choices far from unique to the UK.

You don't understand dear old England; you don't feel dear old England. That's fine, but please remember your position as a guest in our country and keep your foul views to yourself. Otherwise we will have to send pokster to relieve you of the burden of living. Thank you.

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Originally Posted by World's End Stella

When I was in school, Charles, boys did maths, girls were good at grammar.

The EU and Hitler, eh? You really have gone proper mental in your old age. :hehe:

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As I've just said, I'm a Europhile, but the current EU has become effectively the Mitteleuropa customs union that Kaiser Wilhelm invisgased in 1914 just after the war had started when he thought Germany were about to win a quick victory.

"Germany would create a Mitteleuropa economic association, ostensibly egalitarian but actually dominated by Germany. Members would include the new buffer states."

That is what's basically happened, isn't it? I still want to stay in the EU and reform it from the inside, as the future is continental, no longer the C19th concept of modern nation states.

And Germany never intended to use the EU to create the German dominated customs union that Wilhelm invisaged. But this has happened for various reasons. The econ power of Germany, the Euro and the crash, the fact that they have vastly lower real wage growth than every other OECD member, impoverishing the southern nations keeps the Euro far lower than a DM would be helping German exports etc etc.

As with the refugees, Merkel can impose her will on other nations who have no way of voting Merkel out. She has the power, but with no accountability. Of course she has the put the interests of her voters first when they are in conflict with the interests of other EU/EZ countries.

There needs to be political, fiscal union, especially for the EZ monetary union states.

But why would Germany do that? Let the poor states vote what to do with German tax revenue? They won't. They have their cake and are eating it with the Euro helping German exports while stoping the South devaluing their way out of the crisis as GB did after the crash.

We should stay in the EU and try to help force these reforms. But I can't justify Merkel telling other nations who can and can't come into their country from outside the EU when these nations have no way of voting her out. The 1914 September Programme has come to pass.

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Originally Posted by Burney

Like most of your glib sort, you forget that the over 55s were the people who voted us into Europe in the first place. They have experienced more of Europe for longer than anyone else and they found it wanting. They are also the generation who can remember what life was like before the EU and if, with hindsight, they decided they rather preferred it, I'd say that represents a fairly damning judgement on the 'benefits' of EU membership to ordinary people, wouldn't you?

As for your assertion that 'we can leave if we want to', it's obvious bullshīt. We had one chance in my lifetime to leave due to an unprecedented and almost certainly never-to-be-repeated set of circumstances. Thankfully, we took it. And even then - with a clear vote in favour of leaving - our overlords (to whom you are happy to cede more and more powers, by the way) are doing everything in their power to frustrate that democratic decision.

Oh, and it's beside the point, but there's nothing 'scaremongering' about this country's immigration issue, I can assure you.

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I doubt very many people who remember life in the 50s and 60s think it is preferable to our current lifestyle unless they are viewing it through bigoted eyes. By virtually every measurable standard our lifestyle has improved. Unemployment levels, home ownership, life expectancy, education levels, quality of healthcare - things get better with time, mostly because human beings are a rather clever lot who tend to get things right.

I'm disappointed in your lack of faith in the intellects of the under 55s, Burnley. Are we really that stupid? :-(

And I never said I was happy to cede more power to the EU, so please stop making things up. I said That I was happy to cede some control if the upside merited it, which is hardly the same thing.

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Originally Posted by World's End Stella

I doubt very many people who remember life in the 50s and 60s think it is preferable to our current lifestyle unless they are viewing it through bigoted eyes. By virtually every measurable standard our lifestyle has improved. Unemployment levels, home ownership, life expectancy, education levels, quality of healthcare - things get better with time, mostly because human beings are a rather clever lot who tend to get things right.

I'm disappointed in your lack of faith in the intellects of the under 55s, Burnley. Are we really that stupid? :-(

And I never said I was happy to cede more power to the EU, so please stop making things up. I said That I was happy to cede some control if the upside merited it, which is hardly the same thing.

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So you're now suggesting the EU has brought all these benefits, are you? That's a rather grandiose claim, if I may say so. How have all those developed countries not in the EU managed, I wonder?
Of course various things in life have got better. That has nothing to do, however, with membership of the Common Market/EEC/EC/EU, upon which over-55s made a judgement and - as I say - found it wanting.

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Originally Posted by World's End Stella

As we know, the under 55s voted Remain, the over 55s voted overwhelmingly to Leave. I think we all know why the older generation voted the way they did, dear old England and all that nonsense.

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I'm not even sure why that's relevant. Do you allow young people to make decisions for you affecting your future.

The whole point of being a grown-up is that you make those decisions on behalf of, and for the benefit of, the young, our children. And that you, as the grown-up, are responsible.

What you're doing there is shirking your responsibility as an adult.

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Originally Posted by Ganpati's Goonerz--AFC's Aboriginal Fertility Cult

As I've just said, I'm a Europhile, but the current EU has become effectively the Mitteleuropa customs union that Kaiser Wilhelm invisgased in 1914 just after the war had started when he thought Germany were about to win a quick victory.

"Germany would create a Mitteleuropa economic association, ostensibly egalitarian but actually dominated by Germany. Members would include the new buffer states."

That is what's basically happened, isn't it? I still want to stay in the EU and reform it from the inside, as the future is continental, no longer the C19th concept of modern nation states.

And Germany never intended to use the EU to create the German dominated customs union that Wilhelm invisaged. But this has happened for various reasons. The econ power of Germany, the Euro and the crash, the fact that they have vastly lower real wage growth than every other OECD member, impoverishing the southern nations keeps the Euro far lower than a DM would be helping German exports etc etc.

As with the refugees, Merkel can impose her will on other nations who have no way of voting Merkel out. She has the power, but with no accountability. Of course she has the put the interests of her voters first when they are in conflict with the interests of other EU/EZ countries.

There needs to be political, fiscal union, especially for the EZ monetary union states.

But why would Germany do that? Let the poor states vote what to do with German tax revenue? They won't. They have their cake and are eating it with the Euro helping German exports while stoping the South devaluing their way out of the crisis as GB did after the crash.

We should stay in the EU and try to help force these reforms. But I can't justify Merkel telling other nations who can and can't come into their country from outside the EU when these nations have no way of voting her out. The 1914 September Programme has come to pass.

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Staying in the EU to try to reform it would have done no good at all, I'm afraid.

There is only one thing Germans understand, g. Cold steel. And they don't like it up 'em.

Believe me, the day of reckoning is approaching. We face a Deutschland Erwacht and, once again, only we stand between a continent crushed under the heel of the jackboot. I have but one single concern: who is to be our Churchill? Our King Arthur? Our Elizabeth? Our Fabregas?

It's the Moggman! #moggmentum