Interesting way to spin this story, given the fact that the NHS comes second last in

the minor matter of 'healthcare outcomes' (i.e. whether you get better or not).

https://www.newscientist.com/article...ime=1500015436

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by Burney

the minor matter of 'healthcare outcomes' (i.e. whether you get better or not).

https://www.newscientist.com/article...ime=1500015436

---

If you treat everyone, you are going to kill more people.

One may as well marvel at the fact that selective schools achieve better exam results.

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by Peter

If you treat everyone, you are going to kill more people.

One may as well marvel at the fact that selective schools achieve better exam results.

---

Really? Then why does the Netherlands health service come top in access and second in equity, but sixth in outcomes? By your logic, it should come bottom.

http://www.commonwealthfund.org/inte...mirror-mirror/

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by Burney

Really? Then why does the Netherlands health service come top in access and second in equity, but sixth in outcomes? By your logic, it should come bottom.

http://www.commonwealthfund.org/inte...mirror-mirror/

---

Dutch people are healthy though. Not a fair comparison.

Look at the millions of fat, useless guzzlers the NHS has to try and keep alive. No wonder they are dropping like flies.

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by Peter

Dutch people are healthy though. Not a fair comparison.

Look at the millions of fat, useless guzzlers the NHS has to try and keep alive. No wonder they are dropping like flies.

---

:hehe: You're wriggling on the hook here, p. ;-)

Face it: the NHS is a bit shīt.

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by Burney

:hehe: You're wriggling on the hook here, p. ;-)

Face it: the NHS is a bit shīt.

---

Its ****ing dreadful but its free.

There is no pleasing some people.

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by Peter

Its ****ing dreadful but its free.

There is no pleasing some people.

---

I'll take that. :-) They should use that as a slogan.

Of course I won't be boring enough to point out that it's anything but free. That would be tedious.

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by Burney

:hehe: You're wriggling on the hook here, p. ;-)

Face it: the NHS is a bit shīt.

---

Anyway.... the NHS comes out top overall and scores well in every category apart from the ‘everybody dying’ category.

Also note that category focuses on preventable diseases and mortality across a population, and NOT specifically on outcomes from NHS care.

It suggests an ageing, unhealthy, disease-ridden population rather than an incompetent, bureaucratic health care system. In other words, the NHS is doing a reasonable job but people are dying anyway.

Overall, proof it is the best healthcare system in the world.

And that everybody dies…..

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by Peter

Its ****ing dreadful but its free.

---

That's a sweeping generalisation, you know.

There are a lot of very hard-working people patching up the wounded and repairing the ill. The fact that I've had some negative experiences myself does not turn me against the organisation as a whole.

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by Peter

Its ****ing dreadful but its free.

There is no pleasing some people.

---

Would of course be helped if idiots like these had to pay for their healthcare! http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-england-bristol-40598537

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by Peter

Anyway.... the NHS comes out top overall and scores well in every category apart from the ‘everybody dying’ category.

Also note that category focuses on preventable diseases and mortality across a population, and NOT specifically on outcomes from NHS care.

It suggests an ageing, unhealthy, disease-ridden population rather than an incompetent, bureaucratic health care system. In other words, the NHS is doing a reasonable job but people are dying anyway.

Overall, proof it is the best healthcare system in the world.

And that everybody dies…..

---

So a National Health Service bears no responsibility for the overall health of the nation's population? Interesting way of looking at it...

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by Ash

That's a sweeping generalisation, you know.

There are a lot of very hard-working people patching up the wounded and repairing the ill. The fact that I've had some negative experiences myself does not turn me against the organisation as a whole.

---

Well said A.

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by Ash

That's a sweeping generalisation, you know.

There are a lot of very hard-working people patching up the wounded and repairing the ill.

---

No-one said there weren't. And I'm sure that's just as much the case in other, better healthcare systems.

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by Burney

I'll take that. :-) They should use that as a slogan.

Of course I won't be boring enough to point out that it's anything but free. That would be tedious.

---

Ryanair isn't free but it may as well be when compared to other airlines. It’s also ****, you have to sit next to disease-ridden scum hacking their guts up and you stand a reasonable chance of being killed.

The NHS of the skies ;)

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by Burney

So a National Health Service bears no responsibility for the overall health of the nation's population? Interesting way of looking at it...

---

I didn't say that. I think my point is that you cant polish a turd.

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by Burney

No-one said there weren't. And I'm sure that's just as much the case in other, better healthcare systems.

---

Which according to your survey, don't exist.

Best in the world, b.

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by Ash

That's a sweeping generalisation, you know.

There are a lot of very hard-working people patching up the wounded and repairing the ill. The fact that I've had some negative experiences myself does not turn me against the organisation as a whole.

---

I wasn't being serious.

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by Peter

Ryanair isn't free but it may as well be when compared to other airlines. It’s also ****, you have to sit next to disease-ridden scum hacking their guts up and you stand a reasonable chance of being killed.

The NHS of the skies ;)

---

Great for a 45 minute jaunt over to Stansted all the same.

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by Peter

Which according to your survey, don't exist.

Best in the world, b.

---

Yes. That league table is rather like a Premier League table that takes in a range of factors other than the outcomes of games, of course.

Arsenal would always win in such a system.

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by Burney

So a National Health Service bears no responsibility for the overall health of the nation's population? Interesting way of looking at it...

---

Yeah but too much of that gets into the whole 'preventative' thing, which is a slippery slope. Telling us how much we should be drinking (two pints a week max) and so on.

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by Ash

Yeah but too much of that gets into the whole 'preventative' thing, which is a slippery slope. Telling us how much we should be drinking (two pints a week max) and so on.

---

There is a difference between good, lifelong health education and endless prissy hectoring. This country does a lot of the latter and búgger all of the former.

For instance, a really good use of NHS funds would be to teach people to budget, choose healthy food and cook from an early age. Also, the provision of sporting facilities and equipment would help.

That sort of thinking's a bit too joined-up for our mandarins, though. Much better to spend those billions on wagging your finger at those who are already past saving.

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by Burney

There is a difference between good, lifelong health education and endless prissy hectoring. This country does a lot of the latter and búgger all of the former.

For instance, a really good use of NHS funds would be to teach people to budget, choose healthy food and cook from an early age. Also, the provision of sporting facilities and equipment would help.

That sort of thinking's a bit too joined-up for our mandarins, though. Much better to spend those billions on wagging your finger at those who are already past saving.

---

The NHS don't have enough money to even do the health thing before they diversify into areas which could or should be covered off by other authorities such as Sports Councils or whatever.

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by SWv2

The NHS don't have enough money to even do the health thing before they diversify into areas which could or should be covered off by other authorities such as Sports Councils or whatever.

---

But it's exactly that sort of siloed thinking that's the problem, you see? If you take a holistic view of health and the factors that impact upon it, then effective prevention is surely within the remit of a health system?

Besides, the NHS has fùck tonnes of money to spend on shīt like diversity officers, multi-faith chaplains and incredibly inefficient central purchasing practices that mean I can buy paracetamol 20 times cheaper at Tesco than it can be prescribed to me by the NHS.

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by Burney

But it's exactly that sort of siloed thinking that's the problem, you see? If you take a holistic view of health and the factors that impact upon it, then effective prevention is surely within the remit of a health system?

Besides, the NHS has fùck tonnes of money to spend on shīt like diversity officers, multi-faith chaplains and incredibly inefficient central purchasing practices that mean I can buy paracetamol 20 times cheaper at Tesco than it can be prescribed to me by the NHS.

---

I would suggest you are then a part of what is a massive problem if you are wasting NHS time and resource with minor illnesses which can be fixed with some Paracetamol.

:vsign:

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by Burney

Yes. That league table is rather like a Premier League table that takes in a range of factors other than the outcomes of games, of course.

Arsenal would always win in such a system.

---

Its more a question of added value.

For example, Leicester winning the league is arguably a greater achievement than City winning it.

Also interesting that it comes close to the top on efficiency when we are constantly told that the problem is public sector bureaucracy rather than under funding or poor strategic planning.

And Ash’s point that earlier ‘interventions’ and attempts to prescribe behaviours is something british people tend to hugely resent.

Look at the gastropods lumbering their way around our supermarkets. You can’t force-feed these people salads.

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by SWv2

I would suggest you are then a part of what is a massive problem if you are wasting NHS time and resource with minor illnesses which can be fixed with some Paracetamol.

:vsign:

---

Not me, sunshine. I haven't seen a doctor in years. I merely use that as an example of the organisation's spendthrift inefficiency.

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by Burney

But it's exactly that sort of siloed thinking that's the problem, you see? If you take a holistic view of health and the factors that impact upon it, then effective prevention is surely within the remit of a health system?

Besides, the NHS has fùck tonnes of money to spend on shīt like diversity officers, multi-faith chaplains and incredibly inefficient central purchasing practices that mean I can buy paracetamol 20 times cheaper at Tesco than it can be prescribed to me by the NHS.

---

Yet comes out 3rd for efficiency on your list. Go figure. Must be wrong, I suppose.

I don't think it takes NHS money to provide education on diet and facilities for fitness. Those are catered for elsewhere, just not very well. Or at least, with little take up.

Of course, we could take the punitive route. Taxes on high fat food and fast food that subsidises the cost of fruit and vegetables, greater subsidy on local authority gym membership.

People are more likely to avoid a fine/tax than take advantage of a subsidy.

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by Burney

Not me, sunshine. I haven't seen a doctor in years. I merely use that as an example of the organisation's spendthrift inefficiency.

---

Don't sunshine me pal.

I am a fan of your NHS. While I have no doubt the organisation as a whole is pretty much fúcked and the overlords at the top are hugely incompetent the public facing staff in most hospitals are superb and do their best in trying circumstances.

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by Peter

Yet comes out 3rd for efficiency on your list. Go figure. Must be wrong, I suppose.

I don't think it takes NHS money to provide education on diet and facilities for fitness. Those are catered for elsewhere, just not very well. Or at least, with little take up.

Of course, we could take the punitive route. Taxes on high fat food and fast food that subsidises the cost of fruit and vegetables, greater subsidy on local authority gym membership.

People are more likely to avoid a fine/tax than take advantage of a subsidy.

---

To be honest, I don't really take that survey terribly seriously, since it is clearly designed to laud the most socialised forms of medicine and punish the least (i.e. the US). I just find it amusing that, even in such a survey, the NHS comes bottom in terms of healthcare outcomes.

I would argue that hiving these things off into different, competing departments is exactly the problem, though. Other countries do educate their populace far better in terms of food and exercise and for me, those are health-related matters and should therefore fall under the remit of a true national health service. Otherwise, its 'prevention' strategies can only be reactive.

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by Peter

People are more likely to avoid a fine/tax than take advantage of a subsidy.

---

You want to fine people now for not eating up their vegetables?

Some of the most health-service intensive people I know actually have quite 'healthy' diets and lifestyles. I smoke, drink somewhat heavily, eat English breakfasts and even some #gasp ready-meals and have been the doctor's once in ten years and about twice in the ten years before that.

So basically **** the food-snob policing of lifestyles. It's just another version of virtue/status signalling imo.

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by Ash

You want to fine people now for not eating up their vegetables?

Some of the most health-service intensive people I know actually have quite 'healthy' diets and lifestyles. I smoke, drink somewhat heavily, eat English breakfasts and even some #gasp ready-meals and have been the doctor's once in ten years and about twice in the ten years before that.

So basically **** the food-snob policing of lifestyles. It's just another version of virtue/status signalling imo.

---

No. I’m saying you could use the tax system as a deterrent with fast food and very unhealthy stuff in the same way we do with smoking (because that has worked really well ;))

I don’t think accepted wisdom is that bad diet makes you drop down dead in your 30s or 40s. It’s the problems it can cause in later life. Most of us tend not to worry about that and I’m not convinced that an NHS lecture is going to change our minds.

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by Burney

To be honest, I don't really take that survey terribly seriously, since it is clearly designed to laud the most socialised forms of medicine and punish the least (i.e. the US). I just find it amusing that, even in such a survey, the NHS comes bottom in terms of healthcare outcomes.

I would argue that hiving these things off into different, competing departments is exactly the problem, though. Other countries do educate their populace far better in terms of food and exercise and for me, those are health-related matters and should therefore fall under the remit of a true national health service. Otherwise, its 'prevention' strategies can only be reactive.

---

Well the survey appears floored if for no other reason than that it ranks the country with the second poorest health outcomes as the best provider.

On the other point, surely the key is that the message gets through, not who it comes from. How do the other countries that do such a wonderful job of this manage it?

And won’t you be the first in the queue to bang on about the NHS spending money on retard cooking classes instead of beds and kidney machines?

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by Peter

Well the survey appears floored if for no other reason than that it ranks the country with the second poorest health outcomes as the best provider.

On the other point, surely the key is that the message gets through, not who it comes from. How do the other countries that do such a wonderful job of this manage it?

And won’t you be the first in the queue to bang on about the NHS spending money on retard cooking classes instead of beds and kidney machines?

---

Mmm, kidneys. Devilled, on toast. Lovely, if a bit pissy.

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by SWv2

Don't sunshine me pal.

I am a fan of your NHS. While I have no doubt the organisation as a whole is pretty much fúcked and the overlords at the top are hugely incompetent the public facing staff in most hospitals are superb and do their best in trying circumstances.

---

The problem with the NHS is that is has nothing to do with health. It is a purely political entity, designed to make socialism appear normal. It is a Trojan horse whose gift is communism.

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by Sir C

Mmm, kidneys. Devilled, on toast. Lovely, if a bit pissy.

---

Dirty bastárd.

Dear old Twix used to swear by them. Another dirty bástard.

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by SWv2

Dirty bastárd.

Dear old Twix used to swear by them. Another dirty bástard.

---

Veal kidneys are good done in the French style, but look a bit iffy.

Attachment 677

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by Sir C

Veal kidneys are good done in the French style, but look a bit iffy.

Attachment 677

---

Looks like fried shíte.

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by Sir C

Veal kidneys are good done in the French style, but look a bit iffy.

Attachment 677

---

Ah, the little ratte potatoes in the background. Easily the best salad potato for my money.

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by Burney

Ah, the little ratte potatoes in the background. Easily the best salad potato for my money.

---

I rather like the tinned peas and carrots :hehe:

For a nation of foodies they don't half eat some ****e.

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by Sir C

I rather like the tinned peas and carrots :hehe:

For a nation of foodies they don't half eat some ****e.

---

I love the Petis Pois in jars. I'll happily eat them cold, straight from the receptacle.