Peter, I know your interest in pursuing this conversation any further is limited,

but just a few comments on your last post.

Firstly, your suggestion that these terrorists can't be inspired by scripture because they drink alcohol and don't always quote the Quran is so stupid that it frankly exposes just how shallow your understanding is of the subject.

Secondly, I don't "blame" the scripture in a moral sense in the slightest. Blame has very little to do with any of this. My only point is that acknowledging the nature of the problem is essential to solving it. And acknowledging the nature of the problem begins with acknowledging its roots are in Islamic scripture.

The reason we don't do this is because we fear that Muslims will lose their shít if anyone says that their holy book inspires evil because it advocates/justifies evil. But the problem is that these low expectations are entirely justified, as we see every time anyone points it out. But the answer cannot be to indulge this pathetic, infantile over-sensitivity but to empower those with the ability to reform Islam, i.e. other Muslims, to cut through this culture of denial.

But instead what happens? Muslim reformers who acknowledge the role of scripture are ostracised by Muslim communities, with the overt backing of western liberals. Take, for example, the Southern Poverty Law Centre in the US who put Majid Nawaz (a former Islamist but now a reformer who founded a counter-extremism think tank) on a list of anti-Muslim extremists!!!

These are the people who should be held up by everyone as role models for the entire muslim world. But a conspiracy of silence, led by muslims and endorsed by western liberals, mean they are unable to play a meaningful role. And that is why your "do anything, just don't offend them" policy is doomed to failure.

Quote:

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Originally Posted by Monty92

but just a few comments on your last post.

Firstly, your suggestion that these terrorists can't be inspired by scripture because they drink alcohol and don't always quote the Quran is so stupid that it frankly exposes just how shallow your understanding is of the subject.

Secondly, I don't "blame" the scripture in a moral sense in the slightest. Blame has very little to do with any of this. My only point is that acknowledging the nature of the problem is essential to solving it. And acknowledging the nature of the problem begins with acknowledging its roots are in Islamic scripture.

The reason we don't do this is because we fear that Muslims will lose their shít if anyone says that their holy book inspires evil because it advocates/justifies evil. But the problem is that these low expectations are entirely justified, as we see every time anyone points it out. But the answer cannot be to indulge this pathetic, infantile over-sensitivity but to empower those with the ability to reform Islam, i.e. other Muslims, to cut through this culture of denial.

But instead what happens? Muslim reformers who acknowledge the role of scripture are ostracised by Muslim communities, with the overt backing of western liberals. Take, for example, the Southern Poverty Law Centre in the US who put Majid Nawaz (a former Islamist but now a reformer who founded a counter-extremism think tank) on a list of anti-Muslim extremists!!!

These are the people who should be held up by everyone as role models for the entire muslim world. But a conspiracy of silence, led by muslims and endorsed by western liberals, mean they are unable to play a meaningful role. And that is why your "do anything, just don't offend them" policy is doomed to failure.

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Yeah……..

I can pretty much see where I would go in responding to this. I have a fairly clear picture of where that will take you, and so on…….I thought we were making progress last week and we are going backwards again. I am not massively in the mood for the mud slinging and insults either.

Maybe we can end where we agree…this is something that muslim communities should be concerned about and should be addressing. Whether its attitudes, culture, ethnicity, religion….lets say that is their problem to identify. They know these people better than we do.

Quote:

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Originally Posted by Monty92

These are the people who should be held up by everyone as role models for the entire muslim world. But a conspiracy of silence, led by muslims and endorsed by western liberals, mean they are unable to play a meaningful role. And that is why your "do anything, just don't offend them" policy is doomed to failure.

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Yeah, it's actually the other way about. Any conspiracy, such as it is, is led by western liberals, not muslims; they are merely the grateful beneficiaries.

From that point of view, the thing has rather been a resounding success already, not a doomed failure. Notice how Peter's sort refuses to give you even an inch on this. He doesn't have to, he's winning. Or at least, he's getting what he wants.

:hehe: Well played, P. Stand your ground and don't give 'em an inch!

Quote:

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Originally Posted by Peter

Yeah……..

I can pretty much see where I would go in responding to this. I have a fairly clear picture of where that will take you, and so on…….I thought we were making progress last week and we are going backwards again. I am not massively in the mood for the mud slinging and insults either.

Maybe we can end where we agree…this is something that muslim communities should be concerned about and should be addressing. Whether its attitudes, culture, ethnicity, religion….lets say that is their problem to identify. They know these people better than we do.

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Quote:

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Originally Posted by redgunamo

Yeah, it's actually the other way about. Any conspiracy, such as it is, is led by western liberals, not muslims; they are merely the grateful beneficiaries.

From that point of view, the thing has rather been a resounding success already, not a doomed failure. Notice how Peter's sort refuses to give you even an inch on this. He doesn't have to, he's winning. Or at least, he's getting what he wants.

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One wonders about the Left's endgame, though. They clearly despise western civilisation; they have stripped our society of decency, and values, and imported a horde of Visigoths to rape and kill our citizens, but what is their ultimate goal? Surely they will have achieved only a Pyrrhic victory when the last decent middle-class male is dangling from a crane in the medieval hell-hole which used to be London? What do they have to gain?

Quote:

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Originally Posted by redgunamo

Yeah, it's actually the other way about. Any conspiracy, such as it is, is led by western liberals, not muslims; they are merely the grateful beneficiaries.

From that point of view, the thing has rather been a resounding success already, not a doomed failure. Notice how Peter's sort refuses to give you even an inch on this. He doesn't have to, he's winning. Or at least, he's getting what he wants.

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I like how I get automatically lumped in with anyone you don't like :D

I must get in touch with the western liberal conspiracy mob, I haven't hung out with them in ages. Good bunch of lads actually

Quote:

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Originally Posted by Sir C

One wonders about the Left's endgame, though. They clearly despise western civilisation; they have stripped our society of decency, and values, and imported a horde of Visigoths to rape and kill our citizens, but what is their ultimate goal? Surely they will have achieved only a Pyrrhic victory when the last decent middle-class male is dangling from a crane in the medieval hell-hole which used to be London? What do they have to gain?

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I doubt they care, or perhaps they haven't really thought it through. In any case, they will have ****ed and contraceptive-pilled themselves into extinction soon so what difference does it make.

The French and the Germans want to rid themselves of the stench of World War 2, so they've stopped breeding and now work like demons instead (they don't really make any money, or anything; it's just that work itself has become their religion). Now, if you want to keep up with them economically, you must work as they do and also similarly abandon family and legacy and future and a' that too.

Quote:

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Originally Posted by Peter

I like how I get automatically lumped in with anyone you don't like :D

I must get in touch with the western liberal conspiracy mob, I haven't hung out with them in ages. Good bunch of lads actually

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You know I love you, P. I honestly didn't think you would disagree with any of that.

Quote:

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Originally Posted by redgunamo

I doubt they care, or perhaps they haven't really thought it through. In any case, they will have ****ed and contraceptive-pilled themselves into extinction soon so what difference does it make.

The French and the Germans want to rid themselves of the stench of World War 2, so they've stopped breeding and now work like demons instead (they don't really make any money, or anything; it's just that work itself has become their religion). Now, if you want to keep up with them economically, you must work as they do and also similarly abandon family and legacy and future and a' that too.

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Fúck all this. I'm off to Zambia. It's the only safe place left.

Quote:

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Originally Posted by Peter

Yeah……..

I can pretty much see where I would go in responding to this. I have a fairly clear picture of where that will take you, and so on…….I thought we were making progress last week and we are going backwards again. I am not massively in the mood for the mud slinging and insults either.

Maybe we can end where we agree…this is something that muslim communities should be concerned about and should be addressing. Whether its attitudes, culture, ethnicity, religion….lets say that is their problem to identify. They know these people better than we do.

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You sound weary P. What is troubling you?

A problem shared and all that fúcking nonsense. Do tell.