In response to #Metoo, this year's Geneva Motor Show has replaced its "booth babes"

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2,1.

Do you believe in the supposed negative meaning of words like 'objectification' and 'titillation' that you used in the F1 grid girl discussion? Like many politically-loaded words, they are device to define the opposing position as reprehensible and unnacceptable imo.

Certainly there's an irony over the outrage of the showing of a bit of leg in a sport where, for the 'titillation' of millions, men (and women) risk death by driving a missile around an island, and while many of them are highly paid, there are dozens of marshals around the track who risk their lives for the sport but who are not paid a penny. As these are mainly fat ugly middle-aged blokes no-one cares about them.

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Originally Posted by Ash

2,1.

Do you believe in the supposed negative meaning of words like 'objectification' and 'titillation' that you used in the F1 grid girl discussion? Like many politically-loaded words, they are device to define the opposing position as reprehensible and unnacceptable imo.

Certainly there's an irony over the outrage of the showing of a bit of leg in a sport where, for the 'titillation' of millions, men (and women) risk death by driving a missile around an island, and while many of them are highly paid, there are dozens of marshals around the track who risk their lives for the sport but who are not paid a penny. As these are mainly fat ugly middle-aged blokes no-one cares about them.

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Because sex is bad, a. The sexual attraction of men to young, nubile women is A BAD THING and must be stopped.

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Originally Posted by Ash

2,1.

Do you believe in the supposed negative meaning of words like 'objectification' and 'titillation' that you used in the F1 grid girl discussion? Like many politically-loaded words, they are device to define the opposing position as reprehensible and unnacceptable imo.

Certainly there's an irony over the outrage of the showing of a bit of leg in a sport where, for the 'titillation' of millions, men (and women) risk death by driving a missile around an island, and while many of them are highly paid, there are dozens of marshals around the track who risk their lives for the sport but who are not paid a penny. As these are mainly fat ugly middle-aged blokes no-one cares about them.

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Aren't these the same sort of blokes who are abjectly mourning the loss of Maplins. Nerdy component geek types. Or do I have that wrong ?

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Originally Posted by Monty92

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I was thinking the other day how much it would confuse 'progressives' if muslim women started declaring themselves male, wearing trousers and t-shirts, refusing to wear the hijab and doing pretty much what they like. The muslim reaction to such behaviours would certainly give the Labour Party something to consider

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Originally Posted by 7sisters

Aren't these the same sort of blokes who are abjectly mourning the loss of Maplins. Nerdy component geek types. Or do I have that wrong ?

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Yep, they are the same. There's nothing wrong with that though. Some of my best friends are nerdy component geeks.

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Originally Posted by Monty92

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Still chicks all the same.

Not sure how this can be held up as a massive step forward, it is still purely a chick for the sake of it.

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Originally Posted by SWv2

Still chicks all the same.

Not sure how this can be held up as a massive step forward, it is still purely a chick for the sake of it.

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At least Moto GP is keeping grid girls, wd 2 wheel-types

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Originally Posted by SWv2

Still chicks all the same.

Not sure how this can be held up as a massive step forward, it is still purely a chick for the sake of it.

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There's the rub, I think; dollies are supposed to be important, not merely there "for the sake of it."

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Originally Posted by Ash

Yep, they are the same. There's nothing wrong with that though. Some of my best friends are nerdy component geeks.

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It's okay A. Just be honest.

:-(

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Originally Posted by Burney

I was thinking the other day how much it would confuse 'progressives' if muslim women started declaring themselves male, wearing trousers and t-shirts, refusing to wear the hijab and doing pretty much what they like. The muslim reaction to such behaviours would certainly give the Labour Party something to consider

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Yeah, right. See also: hell freezing over. Though the other day I saw a woman in a hijab clutching a wad of Socialist Worker papers. At first I thought it was odd because it is absolutely not possible to be a communist and a devout muslim, but then I thought that this is the SWP so anything is possible. Even in my days, long ago, of being curious about radical socialism I thought the SWP were full of shít.

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Originally Posted by SWv2

Still chicks all the same.

Not sure how this can be held up as a massive step forward, it is still purely a chick for the sake of it.

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If think these chicks are supposed to actually know something about the cars they're standing next to.

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Originally Posted by SWv2

It's okay A. Just be honest.

:-(

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:nono: I've never been into hardware. Though my brother-in-law is and used to marshall at Mondello Park. Excellent fellow though. Likes a pint.

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Originally Posted by 7sisters

Aren't these the same sort of blokes who are abjectly mourning the loss of Maplins. Nerdy component geek types. Or do I have that wrong ?

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They are certainly politically loaded words but that doesn't mean they can't ever be used without a political agenda.

And what you call irony, others may call whataboutery.

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Originally Posted by Monty92

If think these chicks are supposed to actually know something about the cars they're standing next to.

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Maybe, but they're still chicks :shrug:

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Originally Posted by redgunamo

Maybe, but they're still chicks :shrug:

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I think there are blokes next to cars too.

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Originally Posted by redgunamo

Maybe, but they're still chicks :shrug:

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Quite.

Get a bloke to do it. Essentially it is still a chick for the same reasons as the previous scantily clad chick.

The sort of fúcking pervert that would attend a motor show in the first place probably gets more hot under the collar about the bint dressed up as Stig from Top Gear as he does a bint with her bits on show.

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Originally Posted by Monty92

I think there are blokes next to cars too.

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Terrific!

https://vignette.wikia.nocookie.net/...20110305161235

It's basically the Great Women's Football Fallacy all over again.

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Originally Posted by Ash

Yeah, right. See also: hell freezing over. Though the other day I saw a woman in a hijab clutching a wad of Socialist Worker papers. At first I thought it was odd because it is absolutely not possible to be a communist and a devout muslim, but then I thought that this is the SWP so anything is possible. Even in my days, long ago, of being curious about radical socialism I thought the SWP were full of shít.

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It's all allies of convenience, I'm afraid. Islamists know very well that the left will bend over backwards to accommodate them as long as they deliver votes in heavily muslim communities. The left are their useful idiots.

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Originally Posted by Monty92

They are certainly politically loaded words but that doesn't mean they can't ever be used without a political agenda.

And what you call irony, others may call whataboutery.

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First, you responded to the wrong post.

Second, I have long opposed the use of the word 'whataboutery', by any side, as a way to shut down arguments that take an opposing view. It's just another magic word, like 'objectification' that is intended to shut people up.

Third, despite previous indocrination by puritanical feminism, I now simply reject its prudish hatred of sex, together with all of the bull**** vocabulary which is used to bolster that position. You should too, my friend. :driving:

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Originally Posted by Ash

First, you responded to the wrong post.

Second, I have long opposed the use of the word 'whataboutery', by any side, as a way to shut down arguments that take an opposing view. It's just another magic word, like 'objectification' that is intended to shut people up.

Third, despite previous indocrination by puritanical feminism, I now simply reject its prudish hatred of sex, together with all of the bull**** vocabulary which is used to bolster that position. You should too, my friend. :driving:

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I don't think they hate sex, just sex without consequences.

Which is ironic really.

Or whataboutery, I suppose :-\

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Originally Posted by Ash

First, you responded to the wrong post.

Second, I have long opposed the use of the word 'whataboutery', by any side, as a way to shut down arguments that take an opposing view. It's just another magic word, like 'objectification' that is intended to shut people up.

Third, despite previous indocrination by puritanical feminism, I now simply reject its prudish hatred of sex, together with all of the bull**** vocabulary which is used to bolster that position. You should too, my friend. :driving:

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Hmmm. Well some may argue that by delegitimising my use of words such as 'whataboutery' and 'titillation' by associating them with those who use them for nefarious, politically driven purposes, you are yourself shutting down debate and doing exactly the same thing you're criticising.

Unless you think of me merely as a useful idiot, which would seem a leeeetle beet harsh.

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Originally Posted by Monty92

Hmmm. Well some may argue that by delegitimising my use of words such as 'whataboutery' and 'titillation' by associating them with those who use them for nefarious, politically driven purposes, you are yourself shutting down debate and doing exactly the same thing you're criticising.

Unless you think of me merely as a useful idiot, which would seem a leeeetle beet harsh.

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I'm not delegitimising your words, dear, just disarming them. :-)

Look, we both know what this is really all about so lets say it, and let's use Mr SW's vulgar sexist vocabulary while we're at it. Some chicks, mostly upper middle-class, get sniffy about scantily-clad birds attracting the attention of their menfolk, and rather than having to admit that they're jealous, they have to make it out to be some kind of crime that men like to look at such a pleasing sight, because of biology.

Upwardly-mobile young gentlemen like yourself, desperate to gain acceptance and approval among his newly-acquired middle-class social acquaintances, eagerly virtue-signals the approved feminist tropes to cement his hard-earned new status, initially grasped by shacking up with a posh bint.

:judge:

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Originally Posted by Ash

I'm not delegitimising your words, dear, just disarming them. :-)

Look, we both know what this is really all about so lets say it, and let's use Mr SW's vulgar sexist vocabulary while we're at it. Some chicks, mostly upper middle-class, get sniffy about scantily-clad birds attracting the attention of their menfolk, and rather than having to admit that they're jealous, they have to make it out to be some kind of crime that men like to look at such a pleasing sight, because of biology.

Upwardly-mobile young gentlemen like yourself, desperate to gain acceptance and approval among his newly-acquired middle-class social acquaintances, eagerly virtue-signals the approved feminist tropes to cement his hard-earned new status, initially grasped by shacking up with a posh bint.

:judge:

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No, M is excused. He's paying for his sexist bigotry with his life.

Everything else is just banter.

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Originally Posted by Ash

I'm not delegitimising your words, dear, just disarming them. :-)

Look, we both know what this is really all about so lets say it, and let's use Mr SW's vulgar sexist vocabulary while we're at it. Some chicks, mostly upper middle-class, get sniffy about scantily-clad birds attracting the attention of their menfolk, and rather than having to admit that they're jealous, they have to make it out to be some kind of crime that men like to look at such a pleasing sight, because of biology.

Upwardly-mobile young gentlemen like yourself, desperate to gain acceptance and approval among his newly-acquired middle-class social acquaintances, eagerly virtue-signals the approved feminist tropes to cement his hard-earned new status, initially grasped by shacking up with a posh bint.

:judge:

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You forgot to mention that the birds who get the hump are usually fat and ugly. This is crucial.

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Originally Posted by Ash

I'm not delegitimising your words, dear, just disarming them. :-)

Look, we both know what this is really all about so lets say it, and let's use Mr SW's vulgar sexist vocabulary while we're at it. Some chicks, mostly upper middle-class, get sniffy about scantily-clad birds attracting the attention of their menfolk, and rather than having to admit that they're jealous, they have to make it out to be some kind of crime that men like to look at such a pleasing sight, because of biology.

Upwardly-mobile young gentlemen like yourself, desperate to gain acceptance and approval among his newly-acquired middle-class social acquaintances, eagerly virtue-signals the approved feminist tropes to cement his hard-earned new status, initially grasped by shacking up with a posh bint.

:judge:

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I really must object in the strongest way possible here.

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Originally Posted by Ash

I'm not delegitimising your words, dear, just disarming them. :-)

Look, we both know what this is really all about so lets say it, and let's use Mr SW's vulgar sexist vocabulary while we're at it. Some chicks, mostly upper middle-class, get sniffy about scantily-clad birds attracting the attention of their menfolk, and rather than having to admit that they're jealous, they have to make it out to be some kind of crime that men like to look at such a pleasing sight, because of biology.

Upwardly-mobile young gentlemen like yourself, desperate to gain acceptance and approval among his newly-acquired middle-class social acquaintances, eagerly virtue-signals the approved feminist tropes to cement his hard-earned new status, initially grasped by shacking up with a posh bint.

:judge:

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Hmmm. Hmmmmmm.

I don't really recognise this jealousy you describe among chicks. I actually think most women (of every class) like the fact that blokes love perving. It gives them something to feel superior to us about.

I actually think this whole movement is being driven by the economics of the media. I don't know how you'd do it, but I reckon if you could quantify the market value of the women's movement in terms of how much money it generates, it would be a serious eye-opener.

In other words, it's the equality industrial complex, stoopid.

As for your characterisation of me, if you'd had any insight into my private sphere in recently years you'd be aware how many middle-class acquaintances I've upset and alienated by talking about this stuff. Certainly, the idea of me ever virtue signally in front of my peers would elicit much laughter from my "posh bint" (who by he way grew up in a **** West Midlands town and spent her early twenties working as a cleaner and bartender).

So, no.

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Originally Posted by Monty92

Hmmm. Hmmmmmm.

I don't really recognise this jealousy you describe among chicks. I actually think most women (of every class) like the fact that blokes love perving. It gives them something to feel superior to us about.

I actually think this whole movement is being driven by the economics of the media. I don't know how you'd do it, but I reckon if you could quantify the market value of the women's movement in terms of how much money it generates, it would be a serious eye-opener.

In other words, it's the equality industrial complex, stoopid.

As for your characterisation of me, if you'd had any insight into my private sphere in recently years you'd be aware how many middle-class acquaintances I've upset and alienated by talking about this stuff. Certainly, the idea of me ever virtue signally in front of my peers would elicit much laughter from my "posh bint" (who by he way grew up in a **** West Midlands town and spent her early twenties working as a cleaner and bartender).

So, no.

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Fair enough about your social scene, I was just bantering you off. Though remember, we did all read her blog, and perhaps some tweets as well and she really didn't come over like a cleaner from Dudley.

You make a good point about the identity-politics industry. I don't know if the politics is actually commercially driven though, rather than ideologically, but worth thinking about. It makes a change from some of the more eccentric right-wing theories about George Soros.

I still think there's a fair chance that it's all about fashion though. 'Society' has always held certain principles as inviolable, with those principles changing from era to era. Prudery is in. As is the idea (despite all the 'inspirational journey' crap) that women are delicate flowers in need of protection. It's literally like the 19th century all over again, Clive.

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Originally Posted by Ash

Fair enough about your social scene, I was just bantering you off. Though remember, we did all read her blog, and perhaps some tweets as well and she really didn't come over like a cleaner from Dudley.

You make a good point about the identity-politics industry. I don't know if the politics is actually commercially driven though, rather than ideologically, but worth thinking about. It makes a change from some of the more eccentric right-wing theories about George Soros.

I still think there's a fair chance that it's all about fashion though. 'Society' has always held certain principles as inviolable, with those principles changing from era to era. Prudery is in. As is the idea (despite all the 'inspirational journey' crap) that women are delicate flowers in need of protection. It's literally like the 19th century all over again, Clive.

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So the chick learnt some big words and made something of herself. It's hardly an apocryphal journey :shrug:

It's the culture that's commercially driven, not the politics. The politics (in terms of laws and public policy) exists downstream from culture.

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Originally Posted by Monty92

It's the culture that's commercially driven, not the politics. The politics (in terms of laws and public policy) exists downstream from culture.

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Which just makes the questions to be who/what sets the agenda that drives the culture? Commerce, fashion, or powerful interest groups? You think commerce, I'm not so sure because academia has been very instrumental.

Anyway. Do you actually believe it or not? Their position which you have been sort-of defending, at least with some of their vocabulary.

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Originally Posted by Ash

Which just makes the questions to be who/what sets the agenda that drives the culture? Commerce, fashion, or powerful interest groups? You think commerce, I'm not so sure because academia has been very instrumental.

Anyway. Do you actually believe it or not? Their position which you have been sort-of defending, at least with some of their vocabulary.

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Academia has been powerful in pushing post-modernist ideas, some of which complement the current women's movement, but equally some of which also come into direct conflict with it.

Do I believe what? All I really believe that puts me on "their" side is that a lot of men should treat women better than they do. Of course, a lot of women should also treat men better than they do, and a lot of women should treat other women better than they do.

But then we are into whataboutery territory, at which point you insist on silencing me :-(

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Originally Posted by Ash

Which just makes the questions to be who/what sets the agenda that drives the culture? Commerce, fashion, or powerful interest groups? You think commerce, I'm not so sure because academia has been very instrumental.

Anyway. Do you actually believe it or not? Their position which you have been sort-of defending, at least with some of their vocabulary.

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The wholesale infiltration of education and academia by the identity politics-driven left have been hugely successful. You now have a generation or two of young adults in the world who are genuinely shocked and appalled that people exist who are prepared to even question certain orthodoxies. One oughtn't be surprised by this. They have been thoroughly brainwashed with this crap since age 5, with the BBC, etc helping to hammer home the 'right' messages on gender, race, social justice and the environment. The effect of this has been that, the 'better' educated these people are, the less prone they are to original or independent thought on these issues. This is why hope now lies with the proles.

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Originally Posted by Burney

The wholesale infiltration of education and academia by the identity politics-driven left have been hugely successful. You now have a generation or two of young adults in the world who are genuinely shocked and appalled that people exist who are prepared to even question certain orthodoxies. One oughtn't be surprised by this. They have been thoroughly brainwashed with this crap since age 5, with the BBC, etc helping to hammer home the 'right' messages on gender, race, social justice and the environment. The effect of this has been that, the 'better' educated these people are, the less prone they are to original or independent thought on these issues. This is why hope now lies with the proles.

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And this presumably started just after you were very well educated, making you immune?

I like your final point, but I can’t help recalling how you used to speak about the proles pre-brexit.

You seemed quite enamoured of the fact that democracy was a sham designed to make thick people feel like their opinions mattered while actually ignoring them.

That’s what you used to say, anyway.

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Originally Posted by Burney

The wholesale infiltration of education and academia by the identity politics-driven left have been hugely successful. You now have a generation or two of young adults in the world who are genuinely shocked and appalled that people exist who are prepared to even question certain orthodoxies. One oughtn't be surprised by this. They have been thoroughly brainwashed with this crap since age 5, with the BBC, etc helping to hammer home the 'right' messages on gender, race, social justice and the environment. The effect of this has been that, the 'better' educated these people are, the less prone they are to original or independent thought on these issues. This is why hope now lies with the proles.

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Originally Posted by Monty92

Academia has been powerful in pushing post-modernist ideas, some of which complement the current women's movement, but equally some of which also come into direct conflict with it.

Do I believe what? All I really believe that puts me on "their" side is that a lot of men should treat women better than they do. Of course, a lot of women should also treat men better than they do, and a lot of women should treat other women better than they do.

But then we are into whataboutery territory, at which point you insist on silencing me :-(

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Post-modernism is simply a catch-all term for the widespread inculcation of moral and qualitative relativism as credos. This has served to destroy several generations' capacity for critical or cultural appraisal, meaning they'll accept virtually anything because they lack the certitude to denounce it.

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Originally Posted by Monty92

Academia has been powerful in pushing post-modernist ideas, some of which complement the current women's movement, but equally some of which also come into direct conflict with it.

Do I believe what? All I really believe that puts me on "their" side is that a lot of men should treat women better than they do. Of course, a lot of women should also treat men better than they do, and a lot of women should treat other women better than they do.

But then we are into whataboutery territory, at which point you insist on silencing me :-(

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Only one part of academia, and even then not wholesale. People studying engineering, accounting, medicine, optometry, geology, physics, biomedical science, law, architecture, computing, graphic design, podiatry, audiology- they tend to be fairly immune from the worst excesses of what B refers to as the identity politics-driven left.

What I see every day is a generation of students desperate to find something to be angry about, stripped of their birthright of outrage and feeling particularly inferior to their predecessors who fought civil rights, clause 28, burned their bras and banned the bomb.

Its a natural drive for the young generation to want to fight for change. Academia, in the social sciences and humanities, does a lot of pandering to this and of course modern academics feel the constant need to challenge something.

I dont really find any of this sinister. Just pathetic. It is potentially damaging though....

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Originally Posted by Monty92

I like your final point, but I can’t help recalling how you used to speak about the proles pre-brexit.

You seemed quite enamoured of the fact that democracy was a sham designed to make thick people feel like their opinions mattered while actually ignoring them.

That’s what you used to say, anyway.

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I agree. And I regret my glibness. What I had perhaps underestimated until Brexit was the extent of the brainwashing. I really didn't grasp how intellectually unfit so much of the more educated classes had been allowed to become. I mean we now have younger generations who regard living under democratic government as much less important than do their parents and grandparents. I find that genuinely shocking. How in God's name can that have been allowed to happen?

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Originally Posted by Burney

I agree. And I regret my glibness. What I had perhaps underestimated until Brexit was the extent of the brainwashing. I really didn't grasp how intellectually unfit so much of the more educated classes had been allowed to become. I mean we now have younger generations who regard living under democratic government as much less important than do their parents and grandparents. I find that genuinely shocking. How in God's name can that have been allowed to happen?

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Is that how you interpret the Brexit vote? That young people dont care about democracy as much as their parents?

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Originally Posted by Peter

Only one part of academia, and even then not wholesale. People studying engineering, accounting, medicine, optometry, geology, physics, biomedical science, law, architecture, computing, graphic design, podiatry, audiology- they tend to be fairly immune from the worst excesses of what B refers to as the identity politics-driven left.

What I see every day is a generation of students desperate to find something to be angry about, stripped of their birthright of outrage and feeling particularly inferior to their predecessors who fought civil rights, clause 28, burned their bras and banned the bomb.

Its a natural drive for the young generation to want to fight for change. Academia, in the social sciences and humanities, does a lot of pandering to this and of course modern academics feel the constant need to challenge something.

I dont really find any of this sinister. Just pathetic. It is potentially damaging though....

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But they aren't fighting for change or freedom. They're fighting for rigid intellectual orthodoxy and the silencing of those who disagree.

And the hard sciences are not immune to this stuff. We're already seeing scientific studies of certain hot potatoes (transgenderism and climate science for instance) being denied funding for fear they'll come to the 'wrong' conclusions. A couple of years back, we saw a man who had been intimately involved in the Rosetta space programme forced to make a grovelling, tearful apology on television because he had dared to wear a shirt with bare ladies on it. Nobody is safe from this stuff.

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Originally Posted by Peter

It is potentially damaging though....

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No, everyone eventually grows up. Or dies childless, so no real harm done.