Peter, I know your interest in pursuing this conversation any further is limited,

but just a few comments on your last post.

Firstly, your suggestion that these terrorists can't be inspired by scripture because they drink alcohol and don't always quote the Quran is so stupid that it frankly exposes just how shallow your understanding is of the subject.

Secondly, I don't "blame" the scripture in a moral sense in the slightest. Blame has very little to do with any of this. My only point is that acknowledging the nature of the problem is essential to solving it. And acknowledging the nature of the problem begins with acknowledging its roots are in Islamic scripture.

The reason we don't do this is because we fear that Muslims will lose their shít if anyone says that their holy book inspires evil because it advocates/justifies evil. But the problem is that these low expectations are entirely justified, as we see every time anyone points it out. But the answer cannot be to indulge this pathetic, infantile over-sensitivity but to empower those with the ability to reform Islam, i.e. other Muslims, to cut through this culture of denial.

But instead what happens? Muslim reformers who acknowledge the role of scripture are ostracised by Muslim communities, with the overt backing of western liberals. Take, for example, the Southern Poverty Law Centre in the US who put Majid Nawaz (a former Islamist but now a reformer who founded a counter-extremism think tank) on a list of anti-Muslim extremists!!!

These are the people who should be held up by everyone as role models for the entire muslim world. But a conspiracy of silence, led by muslims and endorsed by western liberals, mean they are unable to play a meaningful role. And that is why your "do anything, just don't offend them" policy is doomed to failure.

Quote:

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Originally Posted by Monty92

but just a few comments on your last post.

Firstly, your suggestion that these terrorists can't be inspired by scripture because they drink alcohol and don't always quote the Quran is so stupid that it frankly exposes just how shallow your understanding is of the subject.

Secondly, I don't "blame" the scripture in a moral sense in the slightest. Blame has very little to do with any of this. My only point is that acknowledging the nature of the problem is essential to solving it. And acknowledging the nature of the problem begins with acknowledging its roots are in Islamic scripture.

The reason we don't do this is because we fear that Muslims will lose their shít if anyone says that their holy book inspires evil because it advocates/justifies evil. But the problem is that these low expectations are entirely justified, as we see every time anyone points it out. But the answer cannot be to indulge this pathetic, infantile over-sensitivity but to empower those with the ability to reform Islam, i.e. other Muslims, to cut through this culture of denial.

But instead what happens? Muslim reformers who acknowledge the role of scripture are ostracised by Muslim communities, with the overt backing of western liberals. Take, for example, the Southern Poverty Law Centre in the US who put Majid Nawaz (a former Islamist but now a reformer who founded a counter-extremism think tank) on a list of anti-Muslim extremists!!!

These are the people who should be held up by everyone as role models for the entire muslim world. But a conspiracy of silence, led by muslims and endorsed by western liberals, mean they are unable to play a meaningful role. And that is why your "do anything, just don't offend them" policy is doomed to failure.

---

Yeah……..

I can pretty much see where I would go in responding to this. I have a fairly clear picture of where that will take you, and so on…….I thought we were making progress last week and we are going backwards again. I am not massively in the mood for the mud slinging and insults either.

Maybe we can end where we agree…this is something that muslim communities should be concerned about and should be addressing. Whether its attitudes, culture, ethnicity, religion….lets say that is their problem to identify. They know these people better than we do.

Quote:

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Originally Posted by Monty92

These are the people who should be held up by everyone as role models for the entire muslim world. But a conspiracy of silence, led by muslims and endorsed by western liberals, mean they are unable to play a meaningful role. And that is why your "do anything, just don't offend them" policy is doomed to failure.

---

Yeah, it's actually the other way about. Any conspiracy, such as it is, is led by western liberals, not muslims; they are merely the grateful beneficiaries.

From that point of view, the thing has rather been a resounding success already, not a doomed failure. Notice how Peter's sort refuses to give you even an inch on this. He doesn't have to, he's winning. Or at least, he's getting what he wants.

:hehe: Well played, P. Stand your ground and don't give 'em an inch!

Quote:

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Originally Posted by Peter

Yeah……..

I can pretty much see where I would go in responding to this. I have a fairly clear picture of where that will take you, and so on…….I thought we were making progress last week and we are going backwards again. I am not massively in the mood for the mud slinging and insults either.

Maybe we can end where we agree…this is something that muslim communities should be concerned about and should be addressing. Whether its attitudes, culture, ethnicity, religion….lets say that is their problem to identify. They know these people better than we do.

---

Quote:

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Originally Posted by redgunamo

Yeah, it's actually the other way about. Any conspiracy, such as it is, is led by western liberals, not muslims; they are merely the grateful beneficiaries.

From that point of view, the thing has rather been a resounding success already, not a doomed failure. Notice how Peter's sort refuses to give you even an inch on this. He doesn't have to, he's winning. Or at least, he's getting what he wants.

---

One wonders about the Left's endgame, though. They clearly despise western civilisation; they have stripped our society of decency, and values, and imported a horde of Visigoths to rape and kill our citizens, but what is their ultimate goal? Surely they will have achieved only a Pyrrhic victory when the last decent middle-class male is dangling from a crane in the medieval hell-hole which used to be London? What do they have to gain?

Quote:

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Originally Posted by redgunamo

Yeah, it's actually the other way about. Any conspiracy, such as it is, is led by western liberals, not muslims; they are merely the grateful beneficiaries.

From that point of view, the thing has rather been a resounding success already, not a doomed failure. Notice how Peter's sort refuses to give you even an inch on this. He doesn't have to, he's winning. Or at least, he's getting what he wants.

---

I like how I get automatically lumped in with anyone you don't like :D

I must get in touch with the western liberal conspiracy mob, I haven't hung out with them in ages. Good bunch of lads actually

Quote:

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Originally Posted by Sir C

One wonders about the Left's endgame, though. They clearly despise western civilisation; they have stripped our society of decency, and values, and imported a horde of Visigoths to rape and kill our citizens, but what is their ultimate goal? Surely they will have achieved only a Pyrrhic victory when the last decent middle-class male is dangling from a crane in the medieval hell-hole which used to be London? What do they have to gain?

---

I doubt they care, or perhaps they haven't really thought it through. In any case, they will have ****ed and contraceptive-pilled themselves into extinction soon so what difference does it make.

The French and the Germans want to rid themselves of the stench of World War 2, so they've stopped breeding and now work like demons instead (they don't really make any money, or anything; it's just that work itself has become their religion). Now, if you want to keep up with them economically, you must work as they do and also similarly abandon family and legacy and future and a' that too.

Quote:

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Originally Posted by Peter

I like how I get automatically lumped in with anyone you don't like :D

I must get in touch with the western liberal conspiracy mob, I haven't hung out with them in ages. Good bunch of lads actually

---

You know I love you, P. I honestly didn't think you would disagree with any of that.

Quote:

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Originally Posted by redgunamo

I doubt they care, or perhaps they haven't really thought it through. In any case, they will have ****ed and contraceptive-pilled themselves into extinction soon so what difference does it make.

The French and the Germans want to rid themselves of the stench of World War 2, so they've stopped breeding and now work like demons instead (they don't really make any money, or anything; it's just that work itself has become their religion). Now, if you want to keep up with them economically, you must work as they do and also similarly abandon family and legacy and future and a' that too.

---

Fúck all this. I'm off to Zambia. It's the only safe place left.

Quote:

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Originally Posted by Peter

Yeah……..

I can pretty much see where I would go in responding to this. I have a fairly clear picture of where that will take you, and so on…….I thought we were making progress last week and we are going backwards again. I am not massively in the mood for the mud slinging and insults either.

Maybe we can end where we agree…this is something that muslim communities should be concerned about and should be addressing. Whether its attitudes, culture, ethnicity, religion….lets say that is their problem to identify. They know these people better than we do.

---

You sound weary P. What is troubling you?

A problem shared and all that fúcking nonsense. Do tell.

Quote:

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Originally Posted by Sir C

Fúck all this. I'm off to Zambia. It's the only safe place left.

---

Islam is on the march there too, I'm afraid. Just like in Mozambique, Malawi etc.

Quote:

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Originally Posted by redgunamo

You know I love you, P. I honestly didn't think you would disagree with any of that.

---

I think it is the assumption about what I want. For the record, I want the bad guys (the rapists and van hirers) out and the good guys (ye of every faith and creed, bereft of hate, of spite, of greed) to all go for a beer together (or whatever your poison of choice).

How we do this is just details. I leave that to those who are paid to arrange such things.

And without wishing to start the muck spreading, I am getting a bit ****ing sick of you all adopting the American version of the term liberalism as though it were some sort of insult.

Liberalism is a british invention; it enshrined so many of the things we take for granted today as our civil liberties. It is in the USA that it is used as an abusive term to beat the ‘left’ with. I will have no part of it whatsoever.

I am bit ****ing disappointed that Berni hasn’t pointed this out to be honest.

Quote:

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Originally Posted by SWv2

You sound weary P. What is troubling you?

A problem shared and all that fúcking nonsense. Do tell.

---

Have you ever had a long conversation with Monty?

Quote:

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Originally Posted by Peter

Have you ever had a long conversation with Monty?

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He is still alive so from that you can assume I have not.

Quote:

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Originally Posted by Peter

I think it is the assumption about what I want. For the record, I want the bad guys (the rapists and van hirers) out and the good guys (ye of every faith and creed, bereft of hate, of spite, of greed) to all go for a beer together (or whatever your poison of choice).

How we do this is just details. I leave that to those who are paid to arrange such things.

And without wishing to start the muck spreading, I am getting a bit ****ing sick of you all adopting the American version of the term liberalism as though it were some sort of insult.

Liberalism is a british invention; it enshrined so many of the things we take for granted today as our civil liberties. It is in the USA that it is used as an abusive term to beat the ‘left’ with. I will have no part of it whatsoever.

I am bit ****ing disappointed that Berni hasn’t pointed this out to be honest.

---

Before all that though, don't you see that it's those very same principles which prevent you from supporting the kind of things that would get them out? It seems you're only whining because you, personally, might get blown up, which seems rather selfish as it fails to take into account any of the other undesirable social aspects. How are you going to throw them out? You couldn't even throw the redgunamos out! And the Islams know it.

B understands, I think, but he is at heart, one of you anyway.

Quote:

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Originally Posted by Sir C

One wonders about the Left's endgame, though. They clearly despise western civilisation; they have stripped our society of decency, and values, and imported a horde of Visigoths to rape and kill our citizens, but what is their ultimate goal? Surely they will have achieved only a Pyrrhic victory when the last decent middle-class male is dangling from a crane in the medieval hell-hole which used to be London? What do they have to gain?

---

Self-negation. They hate themselves and - by extension - the society whence they sprang. At a truly fundamental and almost unthinking level they believe western civilisation to be inherently and irredeemably corrupt and evil. It's not that they don't like it, it's just that their ideology and education tells them that it's wrong and bad. It therefore follows that anything that destroys that evil is an axiomatic good - even if the belief system that underpins it runs counter to almost all of their ideas of social justice.

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by Peter

I think it is the assumption about what I want. For the record, I want the bad guys (the rapists and van hirers) out and the good guys (ye of every faith and creed, bereft of hate, of spite, of greed) to all go for a beer together (or whatever your poison of choice).

---

The great thing about North London Turks, such as those you grew up with, is that you can go for a beer with them. wd Ataturk. Shame Turkish secularism has just been batted back into the 20th century. :-(

Quote:

---

And without wishing to start the muck spreading, I am getting a bit ****ing sick of you all adopting the American version of the term liberalism as though it were some sort of insult.

Liberalism is a british invention; it enshrined so many of the things we take for granted today as our civil liberties. It is in the USA that it is used as an abusive term to beat the ‘left’ with. I will have no part of it whatsoever.

---

It really might help if contemporary liberalism wasn't so bleedin illiberal, of course. Free speech? LOOOOOOOL! Tolerance for different opinions? ROTFLMAO! and so on.

Shake we call it #fakeliberal?

Quote:

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Originally Posted by Burney

Self-negation. They hate themselves and - by extension - the society whence they sprang. At a truly fundamental and almost unthinking level they believe western civilisation to be inherently and irredeemably corrupt and evil. It's not that they don't like it, it's just that their ideology and education tells them that it's wrong and bad. It therefore follows that anything that destroys that evil is an axiomatic good - even if the belief system that underpins it runs counter to almost all of their ideas of social justice.

---

I agree, but it's more than that. Nobody really minds a bit of corruption and evil; that's why we elected the Donald. There seems to be a certain special sort of corruption and evil they take exception to, I believe, related to the particular perpetrators of it.

Like the Islamic dress code conundrum; western feminists don't support bans precisely because it is essentially western men proposing them.

Quote:

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Originally Posted by Burney

Self-negation. They hate themselves and - by extension - the society whence they sprang. At a truly fundamental and almost unthinking level they believe western civilisation to be inherently and irredeemably corrupt and evil. It's not that they don't like it, it's just that their ideology and education tells them that it's wrong and bad. It therefore follows that anything that destroys that evil is an axiomatic good - even if the belief system that underpins it runs counter to almost all of their ideas of social justice.

---

True leftism should stand full square behind enlightenment values and by extension western civilisation, despite critiques of capitalism and imperialism.

Quote:

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Originally Posted by Ash

True leftism should stand full square behind enlightenment values and by extension western civilisation, despite critiques of capitalism and imperialism.

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Good man A.

Attachment 706

Quote:

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Originally Posted by SWv2

Good man A.

Attachment 706

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That should Open Up the discussion.

Quote:

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Originally Posted by Ash

True leftism should stand full square behind enlightenment values and by extension western civilisation, despite critiques of capitalism and imperialism.

---

https://hw.infowars.com/wp-content/u...ce-front14.jpg

Quote:

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Originally Posted by Peter

I think it is the assumption about what I want. For the record, I want the bad guys (the rapists and van hirers) out and the good guys (ye of every faith and creed, bereft of hate, of spite, of greed) to all go for a beer together (or whatever your poison of choice).

How we do this is just details. I leave that to those who are paid to arrange such things.

And without wishing to start the muck spreading, I am getting a bit ****ing sick of you all adopting the American version of the term liberalism as though it were some sort of insult.

Liberalism is a british invention; it enshrined so many of the things we take for granted today as our civil liberties. It is in the USA that it is used as an abusive term to beat the ‘left’ with. I will have no part of it whatsoever.

I am bit ****ing disappointed that Berni hasn’t pointed this out to be honest.

---

What you're saying is that you don't have a problem with the sea - just the bits of it that are flooding into your lungs and drowning you.

You can't separate the two things. The baddies don't spring fully-formed from nothing. They are educated,informed, tolerated, nurtured and tacitly encouraged by a community, a culture and a religion whose ideas should clearly exclude their adherents from your list of 'good guys'. And yet, legally speaking, the members of that community may not have done anything illegal, merely adhered to the tenets of their faith and culture as they see them. And here's the problem: your liberal (in its proper sense) belief in the freedom of others to worship and live as they see fit may have dire consequences for your (and others') ability to do the same.

In other words, you face the nightmare of a choice between competing and contradictory liberal values. Thus far, modern liberal western democracy has shown itself to be very bad at making that choice. Instead, it ends up giving lip service to one side (gay rights, women's rights, protection of children, etc), while in fact backing the side that explicitly opposes all those things. If that is your choice, then that's one thing. However, I don't think it is. I think most liberals (in its improper sense) genuinely believe in these things, but are so paralysed by their terror of being called racist or Islamophobic that they make hypocrites of themselves at every turn.

For instance, what could be more illustrative of this than modern, feminist women wearing hijabs in order to virtue signal about race? The sheer cognitive dissonance required to perform such an absurd act and not perceive the absurdity is at the heart of everything that is currently rendering the left ridiculous. For women who have long screamed that girls are oppressed, pigeonholed and coerced into harmful and oppressive sexist norms by everything from Barbie to push-up bras to stand there and nod bovinely while someone explains disingenuously that the hijab - a garment forced on women by patriarchy - is worn only by choice and in fact liberates you from the male gaze would be laughable if it weren't so sad.

Anyone who can perform such a wilful act of self-delusion is just intellectually and morally bankrupt, I'm afraid. And the left currently couldn't find a consistent intellectual or moral line with both hands and a flash lamp.

Quote:

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Originally Posted by Ash

True leftism should stand full square behind enlightenment values and by extension western civilisation, despite critiques of capitalism and imperialism.

---

Yes. But it doesn't. Leftism and anti-western/identity politics are now inextricably intertwined, I'm afraid. Given a choice between the west and pretty much anyone else, they'll back the anyone else.

Quote:

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Originally Posted by Ash

The great thing about North London Turks, such as those you grew up with, is that you can go for a beer with them. wd Ataturk. Shame Turkish secularism has just been batted back into the 20th century. :-(



It really might help if contemporary liberalism wasn't so bleedin illiberal, of course. Free speech? LOOOOOOOL! Tolerance for different opinions? ROTFLMAO! and so on.

Shake we call it #fakeliberal?

---

Ok, first of all the majority of those I grew up with were Turkish Cypriots- very different from your actual Turk, although the rule still applies. Great bunch of lads the Cypriots.

As I said, this has nothing whatsoever to do with liberalism in a british sense. It is adopting the American use. I never use it.

Gladstone would be turning in his grave.

Quote:

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Originally Posted by Ash

That should Open Up the discussion.

---

Very good A, on form today.

Quote:

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Originally Posted by Peter

Ok, first of all the majority of those I grew up with were Turkish Cypriots- very different from your actual Turk, although the rule still applies. Great bunch of lads the Cypriots.

As I said, this has nothing whatsoever to do with liberalism in a british sense. It is adopting the American use. I never use it.

Gladstone would be turning in his grave.

---

Which were the ones that would sell you bottles of Efes in the early hours when all other avenues had been explored?

They were decent sorts. Wouldn't trust any of them of course.

Quote:

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Originally Posted by SWv2

Which were the ones that would sell you bottles of Efes in the early hours when all other avenues had been explored?

They were decent sorts. Wouldn't trust any of them of course.

---

Those are the fellas. Cut your throat as soon as look at you. Very good barbers, though. Ironic, that.

Quote:

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Originally Posted by Burney

What you're saying is that you don't have a problem with the sea - just the bits of it that are flooding into your lungs and drowning you.

You can't separate the two things. The baddies don't spring fully-formed from nothing. They are educated,informed, tolerated, nurtured and tacitly encouraged by a community, a culture and a religion whose ideas should clearly exclude their adherents from your list of 'good guys'. And yet, legally speaking, the members of that community may not have done anything illegal, merely adhered to the tenets of their faith and culture as they see them. And here's the problem: your liberal (in its proper sense) belief in the freedom of others to worship and live as they see fit may have dire consequences for your (and others') ability to do the same.

In other words, you face the nightmare of a choice between competing and contradictory liberal values. Thus far, modern liberal western democracy has shown itself to be very bad at making that choice. Instead, it ends up giving lip service to one side (gay rights, women's rights, protection of children, etc), while in fact backing the side that explicitly opposes all those things. If that is your choice, then that's one thing. However, I don't think it is. I think most liberals (in its improper sense) genuinely believe in these things, but are so paralysed by their terror of being called racist or Islamophobic that they make hypocrites of themselves at every turn.

For instance, what could be more illustrative of this than modern, feminist women wearing hijabs in order to virtue signal about race? The sheer cognitive dissonance required to perform such an absurd act and not perceive the absurdity is at the heart of everything that is currently rendering the left ridiculous. For women who have long screamed that girls are oppressed, pigeonholed and coerced into harmful and oppressive sexist norms by everything from Barbie to push-up bras to stand there and nod bovinely while someone explains disingenuously that the hijab - a garment forced on women by patriarchy - is worn only by choice and in fact liberates you from the male gaze would be laughable if it weren't so sad.

Anyone who can perform such a wilful act of self-delusion is just intellectually and morally bankrupt, I'm afraid. And the left currently couldn't find a consistent intellectual or moral line with both hands and a flash lamp.

---

Stop calling me a ****ing liberal!!!!

Quote:

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Originally Posted by Peter

Stop calling me a ****ing liberal!!!!

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Don't think I did, did I? I don't think you're a liberal. You're an authoritarian, big-state lefty.

Quote:

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Originally Posted by Burney

Those are the fellas. Cut your throat as soon as look at you. Very good barbers, though. Ironic, that.

---

Your throat, perhaps. Not mine. They loved me.

Those shops are all run by Poles now. The beer is better but the banter isn't great.

Quote:

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Originally Posted by Peter

Stop calling me a ****ing liberal!!!!

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If I may say, I find your language a little illiberal there, p.

In fact, I'm feeling a bit triggered :-(

Quote:

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Originally Posted by Sir C

If I may say, I find your language a little illiberal there, p.

In fact, I'm feeling a bit triggered :-(

---

I find it odd that p is getting cross about which sort of traitor he is, tbh. :shrug:

Quote:

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Originally Posted by Burney

Don't think I did, did you? I don't think you're a liberal. You're an authoritarian, big-state lefty.

---

It is certainly how it read.

What you write above is not a new proposition. It’s the quintessential paradox of western political philosophy- freedom in the first person and freedom from the second.

The law has traditionally (not so much recently) tended to focus on the separation of thought from deed. You can believe any old cobblers you choose and it will not impact on my liberty unless you act on it. One could argue here that the problem is not that these men have an appalling attitude to young white girls, it’s that they acted on that by raping them. You may also blame me (or the liberals) for the fact that they felt that they would get away with it.

I could point out the irony of you challenging beliefs based on these outcomes while at the same time being ultra critical of any modern law that attempts to tell us what we are allowed to believe or attempts to criminalise any action that is deemed to be based on belief. Thus common assault is commonly a slap on the wrist- give the CPS the slightest notion that the assault may have been motivated by race and it becomes racially-aggravated public order with a possible two year prison sentence.

You can’t have it both ways. If we are to go down the road of telling people what they can and can’t think then we must all travel together. And of course that works both ways- I am not saying that it is fine to pass laws telling us we have to like benders while at the same time excluding Muslims from it.

This is, of course, a legal perspective. The rule of law MUST trump all other beliefs, faith-based or otherwise. That is surely the crucial difference between us here in the West (with our separation of church and state) and them in their various ****holes where religion still dominates or explicitly rules.

The rule of law, b. Always a vote winner

Quote:

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Originally Posted by Burney

I find it odd that p is getting cross about which sort of traitor he is, tbh. :shrug:

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Hmmmmmmm.........

That comment has been noted.

Noted!

Quote:

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Originally Posted by Peter

Hmmmmmmm.........

That comment has been noted.

Noted!

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Hmmm, you do appear quite feisty today Pedro.

Sort it out.

Quote:

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Originally Posted by SWv2

Hmmm, you do appear quite feisty today Pedro.

Sort it out.

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Don't you start.

Quote:

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Originally Posted by Peter

Don't you start.

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Charming.

I offer the hand of friendship, a sounding point for your woes, a soldier to stand beside you in the face of attack from Berni and the Dutch.

Frankly you can go fúck yourself you big hairy Liberal ****.

Quote:

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Originally Posted by SWv2

Charming.

I offer the hand of friendship, a sounding point for your woes, a soldier to stand beside you in the face of attack from Berni and the Dutch.

Frankly you can go fúck yourself you big hairy Liberal ****.

---

Can't we all just be friends? I appreciate you've had a drink, but there's no need to get punchy. For a start your wife will be confused if you use up all your aggression before you get home. #punchthewifeandpissinthewardrobe

Quote:

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Originally Posted by SWv2

Charming.

I offer the hand of friendship, a sounding point for your woes, a soldier to stand beside you in the face of attack from Berni and the Dutch.

Frankly you can go fúck yourself you big hairy Liberal ****.

---

You called me Pedro.

I cant tell you it didn't hurt.