Now I'm pretty neutral about Brexit generally; but there is one narrative that really

winds me up.

Listening to some Labour MP on Radio 4 yesterday and she dragged out the 'people voted for Brexit but they did not vote to lose jobs, a lack of economic growth, a loss of access to the common market etc etc blah blah blah'.

Absolute f*cking *******s, you thick muppet. The ballot that I checked and that everyone else checked said that you wanted to Leave, and nothing else. If you voted for it, then you voted for whatever you get. If reality has shown that leaving is very difficult (how thick would you have to be to not have known that) and there is a strong possibility that we get no deal (how thick would have to be to not have known that was a potential outcome) then too f*cking bad. If you don't like those options, then you shouldn't have voted to Leave.

I yelled at the radio good n proper when she brought that nonsense up. :nod:

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Originally Posted by WES

winds me up.

Listening to some Labour MP on Radio 4 yesterday and she dragged out the 'people voted for Brexit but they did not vote to lose jobs, a lack of economic growth, a loss of access to the common market etc etc blah blah blah'.

Absolute f*cking *******s, you thick muppet. The ballot that I checked and that everyone else checked said that you wanted to Leave, and nothing else. If you voted for it, then you voted for whatever you get. If reality has shown that leaving is very difficult (how thick would you have to be to not have known that) and there is a strong possibility that we get no deal (how thick would have to be to not have known that was a potential outcome) then too f*cking bad. If you don't like those options, then you shouldn't have voted to Leave.

I yelled at the radio good n proper when she brought that nonsense up. :nod:

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Of course. It's predicated on the absurd, patronising notion that we 'did not know what we were voting for'. This despite the fact that the Remain camp (including the sitting government) spent the entire campaign and a lot of taxpayers' money warning us of those potential consequences.
People still voted Leave because they saw those risks as preferable to continued membership of the EU. They voted Leave in spite of the possible negative consequences, not in ignorance of them.

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Originally Posted by Burney

Of course. It's predicated on the absurd, patronising notion that we 'did not know what we were voting for'. This despite the fact that the Remain camp (including the sitting government) spent the entire campaign and a lot of taxpayers' money warning us of those potential consequences.
People still voted Leave because they saw those risks as preferable to continued membership of the EU. They voted Leave in spite of the possible negative consequences, not in ignorance of them.

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:nod: Eggsacterly.

But Labour - for political reasons - and Remainers who can't accept that they lost still drag this nonsense up. But the ones who really irritate me are those that voted Leave and who now want to moan about the potential outcome.

I reserve a special type of contempt for them.

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Originally Posted by WES

:nod: Eggsacterly.

But Labour - for political reasons - and Remainers who can't accept that they lost still drag this nonsense up. But the ones who really irritate me are those that voted Leave and who now want to moan about the potential outcome.

I reserve a special type of contempt for them.

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I can't say I've come across a lot of those, tbh. No shortage of Leavers who believe this government's handling of Brexit has been pusillanimous, craven, incompetent and could almost have been designed to arrive at the worst possible outcome, but that's not quite the same thing.

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Originally Posted by Burney

Of course. It's predicated on the absurd, patronising notion that we 'did not know what we were voting for'. This despite the fact that the Remain camp (including the sitting government) spent the entire campaign and a lot of taxpayers' money warning us of those potential consequences.
People still voted Leave because they saw those risks as preferable to continued membership of the EU. They voted Leave in spite of the possible negative consequences, not in ignorance of them.

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If everyone is so clued up from paying attention to the news, how come most Leave voters think we've already left the EU?

It's almost like many of them are thick as pigshît and don't actually pay any attention to politics. Who'da thunk it?

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Originally Posted by Ganpati's Goonerz--AFC's Aboriginal Fertility Cult

If everyone is so clued up from paying attention to the news, how come most Leave voters think we've already left the EU?

It's almost like many of them are thick as pigshît and don't actually pay any attention to politics. Who'da thunk it?

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I'm afraid you'd have to show me some proof that this allegation has any substance whatsoever, I'm certainly not taking your word for it.

'most Leave voters think we've already left the EU'

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Originally Posted by WES

winds me up.

Listening to some Labour MP on Radio 4 yesterday and she dragged out the 'people voted for Brexit but they did not vote to lose jobs, a lack of economic growth, a loss of access to the common market etc etc blah blah blah'.

Absolute f*cking *******s, you thick muppet. The ballot that I checked and that everyone else checked said that you wanted to Leave, and nothing else. If you voted for it, then you voted for whatever you get. If reality has shown that leaving is very difficult (how thick would you have to be to not have known that) and there is a strong possibility that we get no deal (how thick would have to be to not have known that was a potential outcome) then too f*cking bad. If you don't like those options, then you shouldn't have voted to Leave.

I yelled at the radio good n proper when she brought that nonsense up. :nod:

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All politicians are ****s. ****ing sick of them. We’ve got two parties over here who got about 14% of the vote and they’re basically stopping the country from having a government. They went to the polls as part of a four party coalition which together had 143 mandates with the other main coalition having 144 mandates. Both are unable to govern without the other standing aside (which isn’t going to happen because the last 4 years have shown its political suicide) or taking support in some form from the nationalist party who have 67 mandates.

After the election the coalition with 143 mandates and the nationalists voted to kick out the current prime minister meaning they were free to try and form a government. We’ve had two months of these two parties who got 14% trying to get the opposition coalition to stand aside and not vote against them which they’ve said not to many times. On Wednesday there’s a vote in parliament to appoint the man who they went to the polls with as their prime minister candidate and they’re going to vote against him because they don’t want to govern with support from the nationalists and want to keep having pointless talks with the opposition to try and get them to stand aside. So basically they’ve gone to the public with a manifesto which they’d be able to get through parliament over the next 4 years were they to vote yes tomorrow but will instead vote no because “morals”. I’d be fuming if I voted for them.

Quote:

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Originally Posted by Burney

Of course. It's predicated on the absurd, patronising notion that we 'did not know what we were voting for'. This despite the fact that the Remain camp (including the sitting government) spent the entire campaign and a lot of taxpayers' money warning us of those potential consequences.
People still voted Leave because they saw those risks as preferable to continued membership of the EU. They voted Leave in spite of the possible negative consequences, not in ignorance of them.

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Is there not two separate but sometimes linked/confused issues.

People did not know what they were voting for, this is very plain and simple to understand. They were voting to Leave the EU or to stay within the EU. This essentially is the crux of your rant and for that I applaud you.

The secondary issue however, and one I have only seen alluded to as quite frankly I pay little attention to the life politic and especially when it is another’s mess, is the claim that people were openly and knowingly lied to in the run up to making their decision.

This is I have seen as the reason for a lot of anger and indeed the call for a second vote.

What confuses me further is the simple truth that people are lied to each and every time there is a vote or election of any type so why is this so different??

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Originally Posted by SWv2

What confuses me further is the simple truth that people are lied to each and every time there is a vote or election of any type so why is this so different??

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well this time the UK is being bullied by the nasty EU gang.

oh, and the sun will disappear at 11.01am on the 29th March 2019

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Originally Posted by SWv2

Is there not two separate but sometimes linked/confused issues.

People did not know what they were voting for, this is very plain and simple to understand. They were voting to Leave the EU or to stay within the EU. This essentially is the crux of your rant and for that I applaud you.

The secondary issue however, and one I have only seen alluded to as quite frankly I pay little attention to the life politic and especially when it is another’s mess, is the claim that people were openly and knowingly lied to in the run up to making their decision.

This is I have seen as the reason for a lot of anger and indeed the call for a second vote.

What confuses me further is the simple truth that people are lied to each and every time there is a vote or election of any type so why is this so different??

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That’s a great point. I’ve thought the same over the last few months. When any politician begins a sentence with.... ‘The British people’ , my default response is to think .. Oh yeah, here we f*cking go ‘

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Originally Posted by SWv2

Is there not two separate but sometimes linked/confused issues.

People did not know what they were voting for, this is very plain and simple to understand. They were voting to Leave the EU or to stay within the EU. This essentially is the crux of your rant and for that I applaud you.

The secondary issue however, and one I have only seen alluded to as quite frankly I pay little attention to the life politic and especially when it is another’s mess, is the claim that people were openly and knowingly lied to in the run up to making their decision.

This is I have seen as the reason for a lot of anger and indeed the call for a second vote.

What confuses me further is the simple truth that people are lied to each and every time there is a vote or election of any type so why is this so different??

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I’m afraid your argument falls down on the fact that the only people who are angry and call for a second vote are those who voted Remain in the first place. Those who voted Leave - and were supposedly lied to (and therefore would have the greatest reason to feel aggrieved, you’d have thought) show no desire whatsoever for a second vote.

In other words, the call for a second vote is just a cynical call by the tantrummy little people who lost for another go. They try to justify this cynical petulance with the patronising argument that they are just trying to protect us ignorant, common, uneducated Brexit voters from ourselves, since we are too stupid to be allowed to vote.

Those calling for a second vote are - frankly -middle-class snobs outraged that the lower orders have dared to defy their will and inconvenience them. When confronted by the fact that Brexit voters have no interest in being saved from themselves, the mask slips and they invariably descend into naked class hatred that characterises Brexit voters as racist, Neo-Nazi animals.

They are - frankly - arseholes.

Quote:

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Originally Posted by Burney

I’m afraid your argument falls down on the fact that the only people who are angry and call for a second vote are those who voted Remain in the first place. Those who voted Leave - and supposedly lied to (and therefore would have the greatest reason to feel aggrieved, you’d have thought) show no desire whatsoever for a second vote.

In other words, the call for a second vote is just a cynical call by the tantrummy little people who lost for another go. They try to justify this cynical petulance with the patronising, argument that they are just trying to protect us ignorant, common, uneducated Brexit voters from ourselves.

Those calling for a second vote are - frankly -middle-class snobs outraged that the lower orders have dared to defy their will and inconvenience them. When confronted by the fact that Brexit voters have no interest in being saved from themselves, the mask slips and they invariably descend into naked class hatred that characterises Brexit voters as racist, Nero-Nazi animals.

They are - frankly - arseholes.

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Excuse me, where do you get the information that people who voted leave have shown no desire for a second vote? I haven't seen a single poll that says one way or the other

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Originally Posted by Pokster

Excuse me, where do you get the information that people who voted leave have shown no desire for a second vote? I haven't seen a single poll that says one way or the other

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:rolleyes: Yes. The polls are pretty much the same as they were in June 2016.
Which would kind of be the evidence that there is no groundswell for a second vote, wouldn’t it? After all, if people had changed their minds in large numbers either way, you’d expect to see that reflected when pollsters ask them if they want a second vote, wouldn’t you?

Quote:

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Originally Posted by Burney

I’m afraid your argument falls down on the fact that the only people who are angry and call for a second vote are those who voted Remain in the first place. Those who voted Leave - and were supposedly lied to (and therefore would have the greatest reason to feel aggrieved, you’d have thought) show no desire whatsoever for a second vote.

In other words, the call for a second vote is just a cynical call by the tantrummy little people who lost for another go. They try to justify this cynical petulance with the patronising argument that they are just trying to protect us ignorant, common, uneducated Brexit voters from ourselves, since we are too stupid to be allowed to vote.

Those calling for a second vote are - frankly -middle-class snobs outraged that the lower orders have dared to defy their will and inconvenience them. When confronted by the fact that Brexit voters have no interest in being saved from themselves, the mask slips and they invariably descend into naked class hatred that characterises Brexit voters as racist, Neo-Nazi animals.

They are - frankly - arseholes.

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I correct you, mine was not an argument.

Quote:

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Originally Posted by Burney

I’m afraid your argument falls down on the fact that the only people who are angry and call for a second vote are those who voted Remain in the first place. Those who voted Leave - and were supposedly lied to (and therefore would have the greatest reason to feel aggrieved, you’d have thought) show no desire whatsoever for a second vote.

In other words, the call for a second vote is just a cynical call by the tantrummy little people who lost for another go. They try to justify this cynical petulance with the patronising argument that they are just trying to protect us ignorant, common, uneducated Brexit voters from ourselves, since we are too stupid to be allowed to vote.

Those calling for a second vote are - frankly -middle-class snobs outraged that the lower orders have dared to defy their will and inconvenience them. When confronted by the fact that Brexit voters have no interest in being saved from themselves, the mask slips and they invariably descend into naked class hatred that characterises Brexit voters as racist, Neo-Nazi animals.

They are - frankly - arseholes.

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Not true, B.

Every single Lab held seat has a majority, however small, for a 2nd vote.

And given many Lab seats voted Leave, this clearly shows that some Leave voters, however small a number, have changed their minds.

This may not include anyone you know personally, and it may be only a small number, but some have and given the closeness of the vote, it's enough to tip the balance.

So if the majority of the public now want a 2nd vote, by however small a majority, and the majority would now vote remain, by however small a majority, the democratic thing to do is have a 2nd vote.

There are some people who you don't know and who don't post on the internet who voted Leave without actually being obsessive about it and can now see that the promises weren't kept, and therefore think on balance we should cancel Brexit.

Or do you claim to know all 17m personally?

Because if not, you can't really say what they all want, can you?

By 17m, you mean me and my mates.

Quote:

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Originally Posted by Burney

:rolleyes: Yes. The polls are pretty much the same as they were in June 2016.
Which would kind of be the evidence that there is no groundswell for a second vote, wouldn’t it? After all, if people had changed their minds in large numbers either way, you’d expect to see that reflected when pollsters ask them if they want a second vote, wouldn’t you?

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pretty much the same??? So the poll was amaxingly close the first time and pretty much the same shows there is no groiundswell for a second vote... quite frankly that has more holes in it than our defence.

the Polls before the vote showed the vote as remain, so to use an opinion poll in your reasoning is plainly wrong

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Originally Posted by Ganpati's Goonerz--AFC's Aboriginal Fertility Cult

Not true, B.

Every single Lab held seat has a majority, however small, for a 2nd vote.

And given many Lab seats voted Leave, this clearly shows that some Leave voters, however small a number, have changed their minds.

This may not include anyone you know personally, and it may be only a small number, but some have and given the closeness of the vote, it's enough to tip the balance.

So if the majority of the public now want a 2nd vote, by however small a majority, and the majority would now vote remain, by however small a majority, the democratic thing to do is have a 2nd vote.

There are some people who you don't know and who don't post on the internet who voted Leave without actually being obsessive about it and can now see that the promises weren't kept, and therefore think on balance we should cancel Brexit.

Or do you claim to know all 17m personally?

Because if not, you can't really say what they all want, can you?

By 17m, you mean me and my mates.

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Nice try, but no.

The polling shows a generally favourable attitude to a referendum on the terms of the final deal - i.e. The deal on the table or no deal. However, that favourable attitude drops off a cliff the minute it's suggested that an option to remain is on the ballot.

So stop talking bóllocks. :-)

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Originally Posted by Ganpati's Goonerz--AFC's Aboriginal Fertility Cult

Not true, B.

Every single Lab held seat has a majority, however small, for a 2nd vote.

And given many Lab seats voted Leave, this clearly shows that some Leave voters, however small a number, have changed their minds.

This may not include anyone you know personally, and it may be only a small number, but some have and given the closeness of the vote, it's enough to tip the balance.

So if the majority of the public now want a 2nd vote, by however small a majority, and the majority would now vote remain, by however small a majority, the democratic thing to do is have a 2nd vote.

There are some people who you don't know and who don't post on the internet who voted Leave without actually being obsessive about it and can now see that the promises weren't kept, and therefore think on balance we should cancel Brexit.

Or do you claim to know all 17m personally?

Because if not, you can't really say what they all want, can you?

By 17m, you mean me and my mates.

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Hang about, this is all well and good, but surely we've, y'know, had a vote about this already? Surely we should wait until we've done what was voted for before voting again?

Quote:

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Originally Posted by Burney

Nice try, but no.

The polling shows a generally favourable attitude to a referendum on the terms of the final deal - i.e. The deal on the table or no deal. However, that favourable attitude drops off a cliff the minute it's suggested that an option to remain is on the ballot.

So stop talking bóllocks. :-)

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Out of interest, how you you feel about a referendum without a 'remain' option on the ballot?

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Originally Posted by Monty92

Out of interest, how you you feel about a referendum without a 'remain' option on the ballot?

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Right now, I'd love it. This deal is so execrable one suspects the idea all along has been to present us with something so awful that remaining seems like the more attractive option.

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Originally Posted by Burney

Right now, I'd love it. This deal is so execrable one suspects the idea all along has been to present us with something so awful that remaining seems like the more attractive option.

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You'd vote for No Deal?

I guess the ballot could conceivably include an option to (attempt to) extend Article 50 and send the Government back to the table , too.

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Originally Posted by Monty92

You'd vote for No Deal?

I guess the ballot could conceivably include an option to (attempt to) extend Article 50 and send the Government back to the table , too.

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Over this shítshow? Absolutely.

Quote:

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Originally Posted by Burney

Nice try, but no.

The polling shows a generally favourable attitude to a referendum on the terms of the final deal - i.e. The deal on the table or no deal. However, that favourable attitude drops off a cliff the minute it's suggested that an option to remain is on the ballot.

So stop talking bóllocks. :-)

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It would split the Leave vote, meaning that Remain would win

Quote:

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Originally Posted by SWv2

What confuses me further is the simple truth that people are lied to each and every time there is a vote or election of any type so why is this so different??

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It's because this was a one-off single issue vote, rather than a regularly scheduled election, I think.

Still all bóllocks though.