Ironically it is the americans that have no real idea what the word means and have appropriated it to anything that looks like big government or left leaning pandering. Very far removed from the classical liberal.Quote:
Originally Posted by Burney
Sociologists now employ the term 'modern liberal' to describe centre left individuals who cannot be described as socialists. But then they would, because they are ****s.
Yes, in the 19th century began a conflation of liberal thought -- as characterized by enthusiasm for Enlightenment concepts -- with the emergence of the middle class. This conflation was not an accident: the middle class sought to bedeck itself in principled lofty garb, in part to achieve its ends. The Revolution of 1848 is one such manifestation. Because of the only-moderate success of that revolutionary event, a natural splintering occurred. The middle class grew tired of certain lofty concepts, and others, artists, members of marginalized groups, took upon themselves the mantle of liberal beliefs. You point up some particular segment of these artists or marginalized groups, this guy up on stage. I hardly listened to the clip. But I would not describe these splintered elements as "illiberal," merely as a product of a long history.Quote:
Originally Posted by Burney
But when I come on here, there seems to be a long harangue against these groups, a harangue in favor of Brexit, which may express the mood of the middle class. I don't know that you can say these middle class moods are liberal necessarily. Basically -- I don't insult you by saying that you're middle class. But you may have sympathy for said class -- your point of you represents a churlish hodge-podge, a kind of scabrous carping. I for one do not approve.
For me, Britain should step forward and reinvade India. End of story.
Your idea of liberalism seems to include membership of the EU - which is a profoundly illiberal organisation dedicated to protectionism, state regulation and technocratic and bureaucratic supremacy over the demos. My issue with you is that you appear to think the EU is something it is not and predicate your arguments about Brexit on that palpably false premise.Quote:
Originally Posted by eastgermanautos
So for instance, today the EU Commissioner for Justice, Consumers and Gender Equality called for the EU to be allowed to regulate the press on the grounds that she (a woman who grew up in Communist Czechoslovakia) thinks the oldest free press on earth dares to say nasty things about EU Commissioners and leaders, which 'sows division' (rather the point of a pluralist society, I'd have thought) and ought to be stopped.
https://www.theguardian.com/media/20...u-commissioner
Which bit of 'liberal' would you say state regulation of a free press comes under?
Well, I guess in Eastern Europe things are going a bit too far. Poland, Hungary. First they initiated a bunch of measures to combat the influx of refugees, immigrants. No problem with that, I can see their point. But they push on further to try to dissolve elements of the government, such as independence of the courts, et cetera. It will always be a bit tricky with countries which were not democratic, had democracy imposed on them, and whose people now are having second thoughts about that imposition. Various decisions must be taken about whether these countries can simply pull down the whole democratic system that the EU had instituted. And whether, if they attempt to do so, they cannot be punished for such an attempt.Quote:
Originally Posted by Burney
I thought -- and please tell me if I'm wrong -- that the EU was established to promote the freer flow of trade between the European member countries. Free trade and the material benefits of it is a liberal goal par excellence.
Eastern Europe is to the right of western Europe (both literally and metaphorically), but the EU's problem is that it really is in no position to lecture anyone about democracy since it is in no meaningful sense democratic itself. The idea that the EU has instituted any democratic system is - frankly - laughable. Equally, we have to ask by what authority it takes it upon itself to censure democratically elected national governments for the laws they - with a public mandate - choose to enact over their own countries?Quote:
Originally Posted by eastgermanautos
And the Common Market was set up to facilitate internal trade, but that doesn't stop it being protectionist. First and foremost it was established to provide a protected market for German manufactured goods and French agricultural produce. Prices are kept artificially high by quotas, tariffs on imports and by paying farmers not to produce and forcing fishermen to throw dead fish back into the sea. It is not free trade in any meaningful sense.
Let us not forget EU intervention into farming and manufacturing which would allow farmers, packers and producers to continue to produce stuff the market didn't need and give them a guaranteed price for it.Quote:
Originally Posted by Burney
Who doesn't need a butter mountain?
Though selling intervention stocks of meat off as halal and a greatly inflated prices to the Allans shirley takes the biscuit?