Burney, your analogy between our treatment of animals and prostitution seems flawed

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Originally Posted by Burney

It wasn't an analogy, it was a benchmark of how, as a species, we are disinclined to allow questions of ethics to dominate our need to satiate our natural desires for pleasure. The point is that, after 10,000 years of civilisation, if we have only come that far on the commoditisation of human beings, how much further away do you think a worldwide moratorium on the commoditisation of animals is?

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As long as there is a labour market, there will be 'commoditisation of human beings' as you put it. Some marital relationships could also be described thus. Prostitution doesn't have to be unethical.

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Originally Posted by Burney

It wasn't an analogy, it was a benchmark of how, as a species, we are disinclined to allow questions of ethics to dominate our need to satiate our natural desires for pleasure. The point is that, after 10,000 years of civilisation, if we have only come that far on the commoditisation of human beings, how much further away do you think a worldwide moratorium on the commoditisation of animals is?

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But I'm not talking about a moratorium. I'm talking about a shift in attitudes whereby eating dead animals comes with a social stigma.

In the case of prostitution, many people believe it should be legalised on the basis of libertarian values and/or pragmatism, whereby prostitutes would be better treated and safer if it was legal.

In other words, we are pretty close to a scenario in which being a licensed brothel owner or a pimp would go some way to losing its social stigma. But if you operated out of these regulatory parameters, say as a sex trafficker, the stigma would remain. And equally for those who use illegal or sex trafficked prostitutes instead of legal ones.

In a world in which animal farming was more strictly regulated, is it not possible that treating chickens as terribly as we do now would come with a similar social stigma?

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Originally Posted by Ash

As long as there is a labour market, there will be 'commoditisation of human beings' as you put it. Some marital relationships could also be described thus. Prostitution doesn't have to be unethical.

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That argument relies for validity on the idea that there is no essential ethical difference between asking someone to sit at a computer terminal or operate a lathe for money and asking them to suck your cock for money. I would suggest that is a somewhat naive view.

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Originally Posted by Burney

That argument relies for validity on the idea that there is no essential ethical difference between asking someone to sit at a computer terminal or operate a lathe for money and asking them to suck you cock for money. I would suggest that is a somewhat naive view.

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I used to know (in a non-commercial sense) a lady of negotiable affection who enjoyed her job and made tons of money from it. If a woman who was not unattractive offered you substantial readies in return for certain sexual services that it would not bother you to provide, would it come down to a matter of principle or price? (Your personal relationship commitments notwithstanding)

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Originally Posted by Monty92

But I'm not talking about a moratorium. I'm talking about a shift in attitudes whereby eating dead animals comes with a social stigma.

In the case of prostitution, many people believe it should be legalised on the basis of libertarian values and/or pragmatism, whereby prostitutes would be better treated and safer if it was legal.

In other words, we are pretty close to a scenario in which being a licensed brothel owner or a pimp would go some way to losing its social stigma. But if you operated out of these regulatory parameters, say as a sex trafficker, the stigma would remain. And equally for those who use illegal or sex trafficked prostitutes instead of legal ones.

In a world in which animal farming was more strictly regulated, is it not possible that treating chickens as terribly as we do now would come with a similar social stigma?

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I think it's naive to suggest that whoremongering is ever going to lose its social stigma. In a society that values sexual fidelity in women, whoring will always have a stigma.

As things stand in general society, eating dead animals has zero social stigma - none. Where is the impetus going to come from to change that? Where is this stigma going to come from? Vegetarians and vegans? No-one really cares what they think. They've been banging on about it for years and the world is eating more meat than ever before.

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Originally Posted by Burney

I think it's naive to suggest that whoremongering is ever going to lose its social stigma. In a society that values sexual fidelity in women, whoring will always have a stigma.

As things stand in general society, eating dead animals has zero social stigma - none. Where is the impetus going to come from to change that? Where is this stigma going to come from? Vegetarians and vegans? No-one really cares what they think. They've been banging on about it for years and the world is eating more meat than ever before.

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I think A (and possibly M too) is saying that whoremongering is essentially fine, so long as you don't call it that.

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Originally Posted by Ash

I used to know (in a non-commercial sense) a lady of negotiable affection who enjoyed her job and made tons of money from it. If a woman who was not unattractive offered you substantial readies in return for certain sexual services that it would not bother you to provide, would it come down to a matter of principle or price? (Your personal relationship commitments notwithstanding)

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The principle is that you are taking something to which as humans we give real emotional weight and value, are stripping it of all emotion and turning it into a commodity for sale to the highest bidder. The level of emotional disconnection that requires and the damage it must do to other parts of your life and view of the world seems to me a high price in and of itself.

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Originally Posted by Burney

The principle is that you are taking something to which as humans we give real emotional weight and value, are stripping it of all emotion and turning it into a commodity for sale to the highest bidder. The level of emotional disconnection that requires and the damage it must do to other parts of your life and view of the world seems to me a high price in and of itself.

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How much emotional weight and value would you say the average casual sex encounter carries and how much damage would you say it does to other parts of your life and view of the world?

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Originally Posted by Monty92

to me.

For our attitudes towards the former to move closer to the latter doesn’t necessarily require us to “willingly forego the pleasures” of eating animals. It can merely require a shift in attitudes to those who do and who are otherwise involved in the practice.

So, in the case of prostitution, it may still be partaken of by millions around the world, but you pay a huge social (and often professional) price in this becoming public knowledge. And if you are involved in the operations side of prostitution (pimp, sex trafficker) then you pay an even greater price.

Is it not conceivable that our attitude to eating dead animal flesh will go down a similar route in the future, whereby millions will still eat animals but will receive a level of opprobrium for doing so that doesn’t exist today?

And if you are involved in the operations side of eating animals - say a factory farmer or a KFC worker - you will simply become a social pariah in any social situation in which you reveal your occupation?

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No, I don't think so; work, and the idea of work, is simply too important nowadays. Getting caught kerb-crawling, for instance, may be an embarrassment but there's no real long-term price to be paid. Everyone can make a mistake but the modern thinking is it doesn't mean they ought to be denied the right to work and make a living. There's endless examples of this.

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Originally Posted by Monty92

How much emotional weight and value would you say the average casual sex encounter carries and how much damage would you say it does to other parts of your life and view of the world?

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That rather depends on whether or not the wife finds out about it, m :shrug: